How to play on a table when players are starting to loosen up?

SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
edited September 12 in Live Poker Hands
Post Oak Poker Room - Houston, TX
1/3 NLH

Table: Some players are starting to drink and are getting very talkative, things are loosening up and getting a little sloppy.

Hero: has the effective stack of $235 (78bb) (up $35 for the session)
Hand: :4S: :4D:

UTG R$20, UTG2 C$20, MP C$20, (Hero) MP2 C$20, LJ C$20, SB C$20, BB C$20
[$140] Flop: :4H: :7H: :TD:
SB checks, BB R$25, UTG2 C$25, MP C$25, Hero All In R$215, BB C$190
All others Fold
[$420]

Question: Was the shove the right move? should the hero have waited until the river and risk the draws getting there in order to get the extra money in the pot that could have been made on this one.


Results:
Turn: :5C:
River: :QC:

BB shows :AD: :AS:
Set of 4s hold up

Best Answers

  • Rich57Rich57 Red Chipper Posts: 75 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    The bigger question is why would the BB slow play pocket Aces in a 120 dollar pot against six others?
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Sammwigg wrote: »
    up $35 for the session

    Never ... ;)



    Off-topic but food for thought!
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    edited September 14 Accepted Answer
    Sammwigg wrote: »
    should the hero have waited until the river and risk the draws getting there in order to get the extra money in the pot that could have been made on this one.

    If the board is static, i.e. the best hand on the flop is likely to be the best hand on the river, then betting in a manner that will get your stack in on the river is completely fine.

    When the board is dynamic, i.e. the best hand on the flop is not as likely to be the best hand on the river, for example on a wet board like this where there are many flush-draws and straight-draws potentials out there, you want to get stacks in as quickly as possible. A villain will pay for draws on the flop and on the turn, they will never pay you for a draw on the river if they miss so your best chance of getting max value is to get it in before the river. Sometimes villain will bluff when he misses, but you can't count on that.

    Getting the stack in as quickly as possible does not mean that you should deny your villain all of their equity. Generally don't overbet-jam the flop if villain is drawing, you want him to pay for his draws but if you make it too expensive many will give up. You need to find the middle-way. Sometimes you need to get it in on the turn and sometimes villain will improve and while that sucks we don't want to push villain out for the same reason you should not open-raise all in with pocket Aces because you're afraid they'll get cracked pre-flop.

    So no, you should not have waited until the river, but in some cases it's completely fine to use 2 rounds of betting. If you're playing heads up you should consider raising less and then go all in with the rest of the turn, giving villain odds that are very for him to deny, often villain will c/r you with their draws anyway. In a multi-way pot there's a good chance that someone has something so going all in with a rough pot-size bet is usually fine here. A flush draw will be getting roughly the correct odds to call your flop shove and we don't want the entire table to get the correct odds to call.
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    edited September 14 Accepted Answer
    CASEY M wrote: »
    What do you think would happen if you raised 100 instead of ripping it in??

    Casey, With a pot of $215 and only a 2bet of $75 more I am giving flush and straight draws decent odds to come along and beat me. By going all in for an additional $115 more(a pot size raise), the perception of risk is greater and might reduce the number of callers on a draw. Even though I am giving 2 cards instead of one, being the effective stack, some players must be concerned about bigger stacks only giving them one more card before having to put in more $ in. So I choose to apply a little squeeze.

    Considering the way the board ran out, the BB and Hero would have put all the chips in by the river anyway.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 986 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14 Accepted Answer
    I think you played it fine. This hand shouldn't make it to the river anyway. Your stack would have been $190 with a call, and the pot would have been $240, so the hand should be over on the turn (really on the flop).

    Poor Villain is just lost. They decide to slow play AA from the BB preflop with 6 other players. Then, they didn't seem satisfied with the size of the shitstorm created, so they decide to lead $25 into the $140 pot. For what? To give everyone the proper odds to rough him up?
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Poor Villain is just lost. They decide to slow play AA from the BB preflop with 6 other players. Then, they didn't seem satisfied with the size of the shitstorm created, so they decide to lead $25 into the $140 pot. For what? To give everyone the proper odds to rough him up?

    Agreed, slow playing aces will do that.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    edited September 18 Accepted Answer
    Set-mining out of position @ 78 BB vs an open-size that's nearly 10% of our stack preflop is not great.
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Monad wrote: »
    Set-mining out of position @ 78 BB vs an open-size that's nearly 10% of our stack preflop is not great.
    Agreed, not great but still doable IMO. One of the pitfalls of starting off short stacked, $200 in a 1/3 game. Finding myself up $35 on a loose table, in MP with one raiser and 2 caller in front, I broke my rule of 8% of effective stack max with a small pocket pair (5% with suited connectors) because of the table dynamics. Small pocket pairs are easy to get away from on the flop when you miss.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Sammwigg wrote: »
    Monad wrote: »
    Set-mining out of position @ 78 BB vs an open-size that's nearly 10% of our stack preflop is not great.
    Agreed, not great but still doable IMO. One of the pitfalls of starting off short stacked, $200 in a 1/3 game. Finding myself up $35 on a loose table, in MP with one raiser and 2 caller in front, I broke my rule of 8% of effective stack max with a small pocket pair (5% with suited connectors) because of the table dynamics. Small pocket pairs are easy to get away from on the flop when you miss.

    Is this game's BI capped @ 200?
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer

    Monad wrote: »
    Is this game's BI capped @ 200?

    Good question, no the game is capped at $300 when the table starts up but the cap raises to the largest stack after that. I am new to this venue as are most of the players. I am using $200 bullets to cap my risk until I get accumulated to this field of players. Many of the opponents I am running into in these 1/3 games are 5/5 players.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    edited September 18 Accepted Answer
    Sammwigg wrote: »
    Monad wrote: »
    Is this game's BI capped @ 200?

    Good question, no the game is capped at $300 when the table starts up but the cap raises to the largest stack after that. I am new to this venue as are most of the players. I am using $200 bullets to cap my risk until I get accumulated to this field of players. Many of the opponents I am running into in these 1/3 games are 5/5 players.

    Fair enough, but you might want to consider buying for $300 -- at least you'll have a stack you can set mine with most of the time. Also, learning/being comfortable around a 100BB stack is a very important part of player progression IMO (my happy-place is still around 100-150) -- so I think it's a good standard buy-in to start the session with and/or stay topped-off at if/when you lose a pot or two (even in a random environment). Anywhere under 100 you're pretty handcuffed in terms of stack utility & you won't get to play turns/rivers nearly as much either.

    But I don't know your BR restrictions, so who am I to say, and you're learning valuable lessons playing the stack size you do regardless. Buying short while taking shots or easing into a new environment seems logical at least. Also, I don't play 5/5, but from what I read/hear about that level, you shouldn't be that intimidated.
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    edited September 19 Accepted Answer
    Monad wrote: »
    Fair enough, but you might want to consider buying for $300 -- at least you'll have a stack you can set mine with most of the time. Also, learning/being comfortable around a 100BB stack is a very important part of player progression IMO (my happy-place is still around 100-150) -- so I think it's a good standard buy-in to start the session with and/or stay topped-off at if/when you lose a pot or two (even in a random environment). Anywhere under 100 you're pretty handcuffed in terms of stack utility & you won't get to play turns/rivers nearly as much either.

    But I don't know your BR restrictions, so who am I to say, and you're learning valuable lessons playing the stack size you do regardless. Buying short while taking shots or easing into a new environment seems logical at least. Also, I don't play 5/5, but from what I read/hear about that level, you shouldn't be that intimidated.

    Agreed, I have started to feel more confident so increased my buy in amount to $300 a couple of days ago for that very reason. I have not been topping off my stack after small losses. I guess because it's harder to monitor my losses that way. Your point has merit so I will give it a try. Thanks for the tip.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Sammwigg wrote: »
    Monad wrote: »
    Fair enough, but you might want to consider buying for $300 -- at least you'll have a stack you can set mine with most of the time. Also, learning/being comfortable around a 100BB stack is a very important part of player progression IMO (my happy-place is still around 100-150) -- so I think it's a good standard buy-in to start the session with and/or stay topped-off at if/when you lose a pot or two (even in a random environment). Anywhere under 100 you're pretty handcuffed in terms of stack utility & you won't get to play turns/rivers nearly as much either.

    But I don't know your BR restrictions, so who am I to say, and you're learning valuable lessons playing the stack size you do regardless. Buying short while taking shots or easing into a new environment seems logical at least. Also, I don't play 5/5, but from what I read/hear about that level, you shouldn't be that intimidated.

    Agreed, I have started to feel more confident so increased my buy in amount to $300 a couple of days ago for that very reason. I have not been topping off my stack after small losses. I guess because it's harder to monitor my losses that way. Your point has merit so I will give it a try. Thanks for the tip.

    Stay topped off for sure. It's a good ritual to be in the habit of for all sorts of reasons.
  • star681star681 Red Chipper Posts: 181 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    I push AA pre, 1st action. AA and 64s. And show both. And I always say "yippikiyyay mother fuckers" right before I do the chan stand and push, with 7 dollars in the pot. Good times
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 986 ✭✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    star681 wrote: »
    right before I do the chan stand and push, with 7 dollars in the pot. Good times

    Now, this has bad ass written all over it. I would fall out of my chair if I witnessed this.

  • star681star681 Red Chipper Posts: 181 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    edited September 23 Accepted Answer
    Last Night at the Post Oak PR - 1/3 NL Game
    Almost as much action as at the 5/5 games in the same room. A few players seem to be dropping down a level to prey on the weaker players like myself.

    This created an interesting table dynamics. Being new to the room, one of our Houston locals Sammy Farha, came over to watch the action after things heated up, for about 30 minutes. A friend of his was playing at the table.

    Max starting stack $300 or largest stack.
    New table started around 5PM, everyone starts with $300 on the table.

    First Hand two players get all in on the flop, one has top pair the other has a flush draw. draw misses and pair wins.

    Winner now has a $630 stack. All players at the table except for me and one other player tops off they stacks to $630 immediately. I know I am in for a ride.

    This 1/3 game was full of action as far as 1/3 games go.
    99% limps were raised, 99% raises had at least one caller usually 2 to 4callers , 30% of raises were 3Bet.

    I decided to top off with a $100 more each time I reached $250. When I was in for $600 with a $350 stack, I isolated a weak player 3 seats to my left in seat 7. He had already bought in 3 times for $500. He had chipped up at least once from $500 to $1,500 by playing hands like top pair, fast on scary boards that had flush and straight potential, only to catch 2 pair on the river to win. Then he would then proceed blow his stack by doing the same with small pocket pair that never improved.

    (My 1st hand to stay in long enough to see the turn)
    UTG R$15, UTG2 C$15, MP C$15, MP2 C$15
    LJ (Hero) :AS: :QS: 3bets $75
    BUT V1 (weak player in seat 7) C$75

    Flop: :JS: :2S: :7D:

    Hero R$100, V1 C$100

    Turn :AC:

    Hero Ck, V1 R$75, Hero C$75

    River :8C:

    Hero Ck, V1 R$100, Hero C$100

    V1 shows 55

    (My 2nd hand to stay in long enough to see the turn)

    UTG R$15, all the other 7 players C$15

    Hero in the BB :9S: :9D: R$105 (I must admit it's a little weird having Sammy Farha standing over your shoulder watching this go down). As luck would have it, only MP V1 Calls (weak player in seat 7)

    Flop :7c :8s :Tc

    Hero R$150, V1 C$150

    Turn :6D:

    Hero:R$300, V1 C$300 (with $40 behind)

    River :QD:

    Hero: R$40, V1 calls $40 All in

    Hero wins with a Straight
    V1 shows :AC: :5C: for a busted flush draw

    V1 bought in for another $500 and was still playing after I left.

    Up $500 for the session. I ether folded or bet folded most of the night.
    Did not play up to the potential the table was offering.
    It is obvious to me, I have along way to go in learning about, thinking ahead in hands and how to keep from being exploited by aggression from competent players.
    But I did enjoy the ride.

    Any suggestions on how to advance in those areas?
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Monad wrote: »
    LMAO - was Farha actually rubbernecking your random 1/3 game?

    Yes he was and thanks for the feedback.