Should I fold 2 pair on the flop here?

Yanming ZYanming Z Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
1/2 game, $220 eff.

My image at the table as been very tight this session, I played no more than 3 hands in 2 hours, always raised big preflop and showed up with big pocket pairs.

V is a loose passive, he plays almost every hand, either by limping or calling, never seen him raise.

I hold :4d :5s , in this hand, decided to make a play from SB. V limps from UTG, MP raised to $10, button calls, I 3 bet to $50, V calls, everybody else folds. Pot $120. V was aware of my image, and specifically asked: "Do you have Aces or Kings this hand?" To which I just smiled without responding.

Flop comes :7s :5h :4h , I lead $60, he then shoves for $170. At this point I need $110 to win the $350 in pot.

So what's the right move here? If he puts me on Aces or kings and shoves anyway, that mean he either has it himself or he can beat it? All the hands that beats Aces or kings are very strange to be cold calling $50 pre, except maybe pocket 7s?

Comments

  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 873 ✭✭✭✭
    The real thought here involves preflop. Image or not, 3-betting 45o with a 50ish bb stack just isn't sound poker. Once you proceed to the flop, we need to stack off with 2 pair with this SPR. He can have overpairs and draws here often enough to make up for the times that he has a set.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 619 ✭✭✭
    I really would love a count in my head for the times I said "mannnnnnn I'm about to make a play here, I haven't done anything in like 30 minutes". It seems the equivalent of "hold my beer". As played, we block 2 of his sets, and you know what? He's probably got broadway hearts so I'm snapping.
  • Yanming ZYanming Z Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    The real thought here involves preflop. Image or not, 3-betting 45o with a 50ish bb stack just isn't sound poker. Once you proceed to the flop, we need to stack off with 2 pair with this SPR. He can have overpairs and draws here often enough to make up for the times that he has a set.

    Actually the stacks were fairly deep, myself, the pfr, and the button all had at least 500 behind, the V was short stacked and limped from UTG, so he was the least likely person I was expecting a call from.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 873 ✭✭✭✭
    Yanming Z wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »
    The real thought here involves preflop. Image or not, 3-betting 45o with a 50ish bb stack just isn't sound poker. Once you proceed to the flop, we need to stack off with 2 pair with this SPR. He can have overpairs and draws here often enough to make up for the times that he has a set.

    Actually the stacks were fairly deep, myself, the pfr, and the button all had at least 500 behind, the V was short stacked and limped from UTG, so he was the least likely person I was expecting a call from.

    Then you should state this in your write up. Saying that effective stacks are $220 is a major factor in the types of replies you will get. I still don't like the play as we will get placed in a lot of ugly spots when the hand goes postflop. We can find plenty of other hands to do this with that have much better playability.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 986 ✭✭✭✭
    Attacking a calling station player type with a weak hand is a recipe for disaster. This player type will force you showdown very often--you better have something worth showing down.

    This post reminds me of the bad-reg thread posted on here a few weeks ago: https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/comment/60777#Comment_60777

    As played, I don't see how you can fold. Sure, we could talk about how a passive player just raised your "AA or KK" and that they probably have a strong hand. However, given the stack sizes, this player may simply realize that calling isn't an option--pot is $180 and they only have $170 left. Therefore, there isn't any more poker to be played in this hand and they could easily just jam all in with plenty of draws.

    Next time, just fold preflop. Wait for some better hands and understand that you can get plenty of value from this player by raising strong hands--KQ, KJ, etc. Against this player, 54o is nearly unplayable.
  • PropergoodPropergood Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    The flop plays itself, preflop is not good.

    Making plays OOP is bad I don't mind this if you have better reasoning than I am making a play and are in position.

    Must ship flop.
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    edited September 18
    Yanming Z wrote: »
    1/2 game, $220 eff.

    My image at the table as been very tight this session, I played no more than 3 hands in 2 hours, always raised big preflop and showed up with big pocket pairs.

    V is a loose passive, he plays almost every hand, either by limping or calling, never seen him raise.

    I hold :4d :5s , in this hand, decided to make a play from SB. V limps from UTG, MP raised to $10, button calls, I 3 bet to $50, V calls, everybody else folds. Pot $120. V was aware of my image, and specifically asked: "Do you have Aces or Kings this hand?" To which I just smiled without responding.

    Flop comes :7s :5h :4h , I lead $60, he then shoves for $170. At this point I need $110 to win the $350 in pot.

    So what's the right move here? If he puts me on Aces or kings and shoves anyway, that mean he either has it himself or he can beat it? All the hands that beats Aces or kings are very strange to be cold calling $50 pre, except maybe pocket 7s?

    IMO, the answer starts with the read the V garnered from you when he asked if you had Aces or Kings. This is a common question from someone with QQ or a smaller pair for set mining. If, he felt you had AQ+ and missed his shove makes sense with any over pair 88+ and you should call. If he read you to have AA or KK then his shove only makes sense with 77, 55, 44 and maybe 75s and you should fold. You said he was passive not aggressive so a cold bluff here does not make as much sense here as a value bet, even short stacked. He going to almost always fear being stacked. IMO

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,514 ✭✭✭✭
    Well played now put the money in. Utg you can't expect to call 25bb pre.