Whiffed AKs vs LAG's River Bet

SuessSuess Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
$1-$2 NLHE $250 effective

V: Late 30s Asian male with glasses. Relatively active preflop and quite sticky and stabby postflop. Has shown up pretty light at showdown, notably when my :AH: :4H: bricked and his A8 won on a 678hhxXX board when a lady shoved (for only $4 more) over my raise of his flop lead. Been playing with him for about two hours.

Hero: 22yo white male. Playing pretty TAG. I'm probably viewed as solid. I haven't been showing up with garbage and am playing back at him somewhat frequently.

Wasn't until this hand that his aggression brought out my inner spewy soul--or was it a good call?

OTH:

1 limp, V limps, Hero OTB opens to $15 with :Ad :Kd. Folds to V who calls. Heads up to...

Flop ($35) :QH: :6C: :8S: V leads for $25. I click it back to $50. He thinks for a bit then calls.

Turn ($135) :7C: V takes a pause before checking. I do the same.

River ($135) :3S: V leads for $45.

Hero?

Thoughts on all aspects and streets welcome. Thanks!

Comments

  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 320 ✭✭✭
    What have you seen him donk with?
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    Whats your reasoning for the flop min raise? It did allow you to get to the river cheaply, but not sure of your intention.

    On the river, do you think this player would make a small bet with a hand weaker than AK high? Seems like it's difficult for this to be a bluff--but maybe that's his plan.
  • SuessSuess Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    edited September 13
    @eugeniusjr Wouldn't get to see it that often because everyone would fold. The hand in the OP was limped. There was one where he limped called an open. I called with QJs in the BB and he lead out on a queen high flop. Original raiser folds. I called and plan to check call but it goes check check to the end and he has QT.

    @bigburge10 It was a semi-bluff. I knew he'd call with straight draws where my ace-high might be good if it bricked out. I also knew my 6 overcard outs were good and that he'd fold some pairs, such as 99- that didn't flop a set and maybe 56s or 76s. That being said, I think it was a mistake. Should've either been bigger or just a call. Perhaps it let me get to the river cheaply, but it also bloated the pot.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭✭
    At first glance i would say that the check Turn is probably somewhat of a mistake given the pre flop action and your min-raise flop.

    But it would be useful if you could provide your opening range from BN.

    On Turn you have still both reasons for betting as some of your bluffs gets there(depending on your opening range) for the nuts, you can still have the 2nd effective nuts and there is some equity to deny.

    You have the momentum now and you're range on Turn should scream for a bet on this board.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 773 ✭✭✭
    Suess wrote: »
    when my :AH: :4H: bricked and his A8 won on a 678hhxXX board when a lady shoved (for only $4 more) over my raise of his flop lead....

    Hero: 22yo white male. Playing pretty TAG. I'm probably viewed as solid. I haven't been showing up with garbage and am playing back at him somewhat frequently

    I'd re-read your hand notes and your self-assessment. As an outside observer, they seem incongruent. It's possible V sensed that, too... and your [mis-]play in the hand in question would fit right in to that incongruity.
  • SuessSuess Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    @Adam Wheeler My range on the BTN in this instance is something like 99+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo+. I'd probably limp behind most smaller suited connectors and middling pocket pairs. I felt like the turn hit his range better than mine which is one reason why I slowed up. He also looked as if he was contemplating a bet, and I didn't want to get check-raised or simply take myself to Value Town.

    @moishetreats When I say solid, I don't mean solid as in like a rock aka super tight. I meant as a player who thinks about the game and would be a tougher opponent for him. It would be fair to say that against him I'm certainly playing more LAGgy. But can you please elaborate on the specific incongruences you see?
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭✭
    Suess wrote: »
    @Adam Wheeler My range on the BTN in this instance is something like 99+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo+. I'd probably limp behind most smaller suited connectors and middling pocket pairs. I felt like the turn hit his range better than mine which is one reason why I slowed up. He also looked as if he was contemplating a bet, and I didn't want to get check-raised or simply take myself to Value Town.

    You do realize that this represent 8.14% of hands.

    Think about this.
    Think about what it imply in correlation with the position you occupy at the table.
    Think about where it will put you going post-flop when you do actually go.
    Think about all the missed opportunities there will be with that range, having momentum and position.
  • SuessSuess Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    You do realize that this represent 8.14% of hands.

    Think about this.
    Think about what it imply in correlation with the position you occupy at the table.
    Think about where it will put you going post-flop when you do actually go.
    Think about all the missed opportunities there will be with that range, having momentum and position.

    I knew it was too tight but didn't realize how narrow it actually was. It implies that, if my range OTB is this small, then by extension it it too narrow in other positions. It puts me heavily weighted toward value post-flop and leaves money on the table given my advantage in positional and initiative.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13
    You'll lack board coverage also and once someone realize this, if they are competent they'll attack you relentlessly post-flop.
  • SuessSuess Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    @Adam Wheeler Understood. Going back to your first comment, given my preflop range error, do you still think it was a mistake to check-back the turn? Or no because the same reasons for my flop raise still stand?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 800 ✭✭✭
    edited September 14
    Suess wrote: »
    @Adam Wheeler Understood. Going back to your first comment, given my preflop range error, do you still think it was a mistake to check-back the turn? Or no because the same reasons for my flop raise still stand?

    @Suess : try to answer your question yourself ! Here are some hints:
    - Why did you (min) raise flop : for value (making worst hands call) or for bluff (making better hands fold? What range are you targeting?
    - Put yourself in villain's shoes: someone min-raises you on flop after you donk, and then checks on a brick. What is he holding? I.e. is he following this line with KK? AQ? 66? 98? 97?

    When you know why and what you're flop raising, then you know what you should do on turn to tell a coherent story and achieve what you want (finding a call or a fold).
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    Seems like OP may have a false sense of image. They refer to themselves as TAG or LAG, but the actions made during this hand are neither.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 773 ✭✭✭
    Suess wrote: »
    @moishetreats When I say solid, I don't mean solid as in like a rock aka super tight. I meant as a player who thinks about the game and would be a tougher opponent for him. It would be fair to say that against him I'm certainly playing more LAGgy. But can you please elaborate on the specific incongruences you see?

    Shoving A4s on a flush draw / gut-shot straight draw is certainly a good move overall, but I wouldn't label it as TAG.

    You then wrote that you haven't shown up with garbage, but you lost an all-in with A-high but consider his winning hand to be light (maybe he did have a beat on you?).

    And you wrote that you have been playing back at him somewhat frequently.

    None of this screams solid TAG to me (I could be wrong). If that is the case, though, the you view yourself one way and V -- or maybe the table -- views you another way. Thus, you believe that you should be given credit for big hands (like a TAG) when other see you as capable of getting it all in with a missed hand. Those incongruencies -- failed self-perception and mistaken perceived table image -- can be deadly.
  • SuessSuess Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    @Red Like I said in a previous comment, I think my flop min-raise was a semibluff because I knew he would call with straight draws I beat if they don't come in. Though, I think it was more bluffy, because I perceived his donks as more like stabs/probes than bets for pure value with hands that could stand up to a raise. In hindsight I think checking the turn was a mistake because it capped my range. I can no longer have sets, AQ or AA or KK. I think I did it because I was somewhat surprised that he called my flop raise.

    @bigburge10 How would you classify the actions and what would you label my image as?
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    Hey @Suess - I know I'm using information from a single hand and that may skew things, but the actions in this hand don't seem TAG or LAG to me.

    1.) The range you provide on the BTN is really tight. A TAG would be much wider, not to mention how much wider a LAG would be.
    2.) The flop min raise barely qualifies as an aggressive action. You say it's for value, and V will call with drawing hands. This is certainly true as you're offering them excellent odds to continue with draws. However, you're not making this player make a mistake.
    3.) If you're going to raise the flop, then you probably need to continue your aggression on the turn. I realize this turn card certainly isn't ideal, but if you were truly a TAG or LAG, you'd be able to rep this board, and deep down, you know you can't.
    4.) "I haven't been showing up with garbage and am playing back at him somewhat frequently." This sounds like you've played back at him when you've actually made a hand. Not sure if this is true, but only you will know for sure.
    5.) It seems this player is leading into you on many flops. This leads me to believe that this player is aware of your tight range and knows which boards you're likely to check back. So, they're attacking you.
  • SuessSuess Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    @moishetreats Thanks for elaborating on that. It definitely does seem like I have my perceived image wrong. They can be deadly and have certainly cost me some money in the past. Here's do hopefully putting those days behind me.

    @bigburge10 No worries. Be scathing.

    1) So you're saying I'm a nit haha. Fair enough. I admit that that range is super nitty.
    2) This is a great point. If I wanted to truly charge his draws then the raise needs to be bigger.
    3) Right, because if I raise the flop and then don't follow up on the turn it's like I'm just clicking buttons and unable to follow through and totally commit. Yes, a lot of this is based on the fact that I know I can't credibly rep this board.
    4) I don't remember what my hands were. All I know is that I felt like I was being stickier post flop and raising him more often than the rest of the table. But maybe I'm overstating my aggression against him or have misperceived it like my general image.
    5) He was leading into everyone, but I don't doubt that he's observant enough to notice my tight range and not be afraid to attack it.

    Big thanks to everyone who contributed! This thread has been very informative for me and forced me reevaluate some apparent misconceptions I had about my game, which can never hurt.

    Results: I called the $45 and he overturned :JC: :TC: for the busted gutshot/flush draw. I ultimately called because:
    1) I was getting a great price of 4:1.
    2) I felt he would size bigger with value hands.
    3) He's not the type to go for thin value with a non-top pair hand.
    4) He is the type who wouldn't be able to help himself and not bluff with his missed draws or overcards like KJ or AJ, especially after the weakness of my turn check-back which would only increase his bluffing frequency.