Calling Clock as Strategy

radical_dgradical_dg Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
Thoughts on ethical/moral complications of using this as a strategy.

Summary of hand...hero sucks out on river with a weird full house, hero knows absolutely certain that the villain in the hand has a weaker full house or nut trips. Hero moves all in and calls clock within a short 30 seconds in an attempt to tilt said player and generate a call. Is this morally ethical, a frowned upon manuever, or simply another tool in the poker players toolbox.

Would be interested in your thoughts, thanks!

Devin

Comments

  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 986 ✭✭✭✭
    I think you know the answer.
  • radical_dgradical_dg Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    @bigburge10 I actually don't, as I have never felt any remorse for doing so. The reason for posting the question was because a friend had told me he felt it was unethical to do so.

    My stance is as follows: Poker is a game won by exploiting weaknesses in our opponents. Those weaknesses can range from their inability to read hands and their inability to fold hands. Another exploitation is targeting an opponents emotional stability, causing them to tilt and inevitably throwing off their problem solving skills.

    So at the end of the day, I am taking advantage of a legal opportunity to exploit my opponents. I see no problem with this.
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 127 ✭✭
    edited September 13
    Do to others what you expect to be done towards you.

    You will have to face a very big decision at one point or another, decisions that will be matter of your tournament life. A player who has noticed you calling clocks early will do the same to you without thinking twice, regardless of whether he has been involved in a pot with you or not before when you did. You're going to regret having everyone against you at that time.

    There's a good chance that the dealer or the floor-man will void your clock-request, anyway, as there often needs to pass a minimum amount of time before a clock request is considered valid.

    This can be a +EV decisions in a single hand hand, but only if you're certain that's the affect it's going to have on this very specific opponent. There's a huge chance that you will force someone to fold out of frustration, just as likely, wheres they might have called you lighter had they been given the time to think.

    In the long term you're probably not going to make any more chips. All you do is make sure that no one is going to respect the time that you need and you're essentially flipping in terms of tilting an opponent in calling or folding wheres they could have gone the other way around had you simply shown patience.

    You'd be much better off learning how to apply table talk (within the rules of a given tournament/game) to make yourself appear weaker or stronger than you actually are and learn whether your opponent is strong or weak, and induce calls or folds without disrespecting one's time to think.

    Don't eliminate a player's time to think just for the sake of inducing a call, you're likely to fail and even if you're successful you're likely going to suffer in the long run.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 673 ✭✭✭
    It's a fine line between taking advantage of an exploit and angle-shooting. A verryyy fine line.

    An axiom that I tend to use in life is: If you have to ask if it's okay, then it's probably not.
  • radical_dgradical_dg Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    edited September 13
    @moishetreats I agree with that statement, however in this particular sense I never felt the need to ask. I still see it as nothing more than any other action at the table. The reason for the post was the friend who brought it to my attention had stated that the poker community would be overwhelmingly on his side. Someone calling clock can be considered a douchebag, angle-shooters are also douchebags, but just because you're a douchebag doesn't automatically mean you're an angle-shooter.

    @Jonas The golden rule as you stated above....I've never had clock called on me in live poker partly because I've never taken more than 45 seconds to make any decision and I've played professionally for approximately a year at this point. If a player were to use this as an opportunity to tilt me, more power to them, I have no problem with it being done to me just as I have no problem with someone running a bluff on me or taking me for three streets of value. I see your stance of it likely being neutral in terms of long term, however I would say there are very very particular circumstances where this has arisen and I felt that by calling clock would give me the outcome desired...which it has, and it has weighed far greater on the action I was hoping for. As far as speech play, I actually have that as a huge part of my game. I'm very active, very talkative, very loud and always ushering people to make a decision quickly so me calling clock is not too huge surprise. Part of my game plan is to act particularly fast, speed up the tempo of the game, and ultimately cause others to have accidents by doing so.

    I see no rules on being a prick and calling clock. I mean I guess I could look at the opponent and tell him his "mom/gf is fat/ugly" and get the same effect of tilt on the player. I see no difference between calling clock on a player to get a desired result and the catcher behind the plate in baseball talking and confusing the batter.
  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 86 ✭✭
    Well you got your answer.... most people think it's poor form.
  • radical_dgradical_dg Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    @CASEY M Yup I agree....I don't mind being called Villain I guess :(
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    radical_dg wrote: »
    @moishetreats ... I never felt the need to ask. I still see it as nothing more than any other action at the table... Someone calling clock can be considered a douchebag, angle-shooters are also douchebags, but just because you're a douchebag doesn't automatically mean you're an angle-shooter.

    The Parable of the Douchebag. I love poker players.
  • radical_dgradical_dg Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    edited September 13
    @persuadeo

    Parable of the Douchebag! Ahahahahaha! Old Buddhist monk parable I heard many moons ago.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 673 ✭✭✭
  • radical_dgradical_dg Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    @moishetreats Great video lol it obviously didn't work and totally backfired on that guy, I'm just not sold that he did anything wrong. He tested a strategy out against Daniel "more rake is better" Negreanu and got caught. Gotta give him merit for trying and Daniel props for the quick soul read.
  • Ryan ARyan A Red Chipper Posts: 109 ✭✭
    Like Daniel said, a reasonable amount of time needs to pass before you can call the clock. That was like 20sec so according to the rules yes he did something wrong
  • rabidjazzrabidjazz Red Chipper Posts: 88 ✭✭
    Grunch.

    It's a dick move.

    -rJ
  • Ruxton_AtheistRuxton_Atheist Red Chipper Posts: 124 ✭✭
    UTG limps, folds all the way around to the BB who was on his phone. Before the dealer speaks up, UTG holds his cards out face down and says, "chop?"

    "Sure", says the BB who mucks, and the douchebag scoops.

    All angle shooters are douchebags, but all douchebags are not ... wait, what?
    All douchebags are ...

    It's not a parable, its a tautology.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 283 ✭✭✭
    UTG limps, folds all the way around to the BB who was on his phone. Before the dealer speaks up, UTG holds his cards out face down and says, "chop?"

    "Sure", says the BB who mucks, and the douchebag scoops.

    All angle shooters are douchebags, but all douchebags are not ... wait, what?
    All douchebags are ...

    It's not a parable, its a tautology.

    You need a better example. I cheer UTG for his creativity and fight against chronic cell phone users who slow the game.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The parable isn't the tautology, which isn't a tautology anyway.
  • Ruxton_AtheistRuxton_Atheist Red Chipper Posts: 124 ✭✭
    UTG limps, folds all the way around to the BB who was on his phone. Before the dealer speaks up, UTG holds his cards out face down and says, "chop?"

    "Sure", says the BB who mucks, and the douchebag scoops.

    All angle shooters are douchebags, but all douchebags are not ... wait, what?
    All douchebags are ...

    It's not a parable, its a tautology.

    I keep clicking the Disagree icon, but the mod says "You can't react to your own post".
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 619 ✭✭✭
    I've called clock once. It was a $450 pot a woman had $80 left bet $50 Heads up V Someone snap all-in and she tanked for over a minute and a half...for $30 more dollars...after leading river. I thought it was ridiculous (as did the dealer based on eye contact and her relay to the floor). She didn't let me live it down, entering every single hand I was in the next orbit taking up to a minute + on every street until I left the table after about 3 hands with her. I think she won. I haven't called clock since.

    Point is, just like if you think your gonna retire off the $ made calling clock your in the same boat of people who think they gonna retire playing $1/2 20 hours a week: there's better ways to make money and other ways to scope out your edge.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
    edited September 14
    I agree with @jfarrow13 : calling the clock early as a strategy is -EV in the long run.

    It's not illegal but not fair-play - in bird language we call that a "dick move"

    What are you going to achieve? Maybe a win on one hand, and alienating the whole table against you; or at least putting a bad atmosphere around the table.
    That exactly the contrary we - as poker pro - are looking for. We want other players to have fun, relax, enjoy... and gamble their money.
    If they are unhappy, tense, nervous, your winrate is going down the drain. Worst: maybe they won't come back playing (and we want players to come back, especially players worst than us).

    This is a lesson I got from @kagey : as pro poker players, part of our job is also to entertain people. And this is even more important if you're a reg at your casino as people remember (and will avoid your casino if they had a bad experience, but come back with friends if they had a good one... and you want "your" poker room full, not empty).
  • vito dvito d Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    radical_dg wrote: »

    I see no rules on being a prick and calling clock. I mean I guess I could look at the opponent and tell him his "mom/gf is fat/ugly" and get the same effect of tilt on the player. I see no difference between calling clock on a player to get a desired result and the catcher behind the plate in baseball talking and confusing the batter.

    Are you not worried about someone beating the crap out of you?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He's got nothing to worry about. The Gargamels of this world are few and far between. Mostly poker players just tweet about injustices for sympathy and feelzies.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 619 ✭✭✭
    Gargamel ain't about that life.