Do you like this line? (3bet, cbet, check-back, call reraise)

Miles HMiles H Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
Position Stack
MP2 5,169 (12.9 bb)
MP3 6,101 (15.3 bb)
CO 5,245 (13.1 bb)
BTN 15,230 (38.1 bb)
SB 3,720 (9.3 bb)
BB 5,938 (14.8 bb)
UTG+1 15,022 (37.6 bb)
UTG+2 31,039 (77.6 bb)
MP1 Hero 21,013 (52.5 bb)

DETAILS:
Limit: No Limit Hold'em Tournament
Site: Poker Stars
Stakes/Buy-In: $6.82+$0.68
Players: 9


Blinds: 200/400/60

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with :Ac :Qs
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to 920, Hero raises to 2,400, 6 folds, UTG+2 calls 1,480

I dont always 3bet AQo especially against an ep raiser, yet here I decided to go for it for no particular reason, but I intended to fold against a reasonable large 4bet. Villain and I are the bigger stacks at the table and since I have position on him I thought it might be a good spot to test him. If I remember correctly I was also relatively new at the table.
He calls the 3bet oop.

Flop: (5,940) :3d :9d :5s (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets 2,970, UTG+2 calls 2,970

Not a particular great flop for the both of us it seems. I think checking back here is totally fine, and maybe go for a delayed cbet, but I decided to cbet here for two reasons: I represent the big overpairs and he could easily find a fold with 66-88 and AQ, whereas, at the same time I could get value from AT-AJ. So do you think this makes a cbet the better play or do you think I should go for a check-back to keep the pot smaller and just fire when he checks again? Cbetting this flop is somewhat risky since I dont have any backdoor potential to justify double barreling, right? Now, I feel like the only hands calling 3 barrels here would be 99-JJ (maybe not even). And for TT-JJ I can also turn or river Q-A. So, I feel like there is a lot of fold equity on his part.
He calls the cbet.

Turn: (11,880) :As (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks

This is a great card for me. The only hand in his range that has me beat is a set of 99 (Im neglecting the fact of him slow-playing AA.). At the same time it's probably scary for him. I dont think he would call two more streets with some second best pairs and since I dont fear many river cards I decided to check-back. Disguise my Ace and make it look like I am the one who is scared and maybe induce a bluff or at least get some decent value.
We both check.

River: (11,880) :9S: (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets 3,600, UTG+2 raises to 15,200, Hero calls 11,600

A backdoor flush arrives. 99 is very unlikely for him to have. Especially, when he checks to me, after we checked the turn, there is noway he has something better than me. This is when I came up with the plan to bet relatively small. I was also tanking some time and it looked more like a bluff than a value bet really. In case he had AT-AQ I could have maybe gone a bit bigger but for the rest of his range I think he could still call with 88-JJ, or also get him to bluff some of this hands.
He tanked a lot and reraised me, which I snap called.
Results: 42,280 pot


So, does this line make sense or is there something off? I think, I wouldnt always play it this way. As I said, I would often take the approach of a delayed cbet or double barrel the turn when I hit and maybe check back the river. But, this line made a lot of sense to me this time.

Thanks for any feedback guys.
Miles

Comments

  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 280 ✭✭
    edited September 13
    If your range for him all the way through includes AJ, AT, and weaker aces you beat, then your line is fine. If he folds AJ/AT/weaker to your preflop 3bet, then I don't like your line.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 773 ✭✭✭
    Is your consideration of V's hole cards a possible outcome or the probable outcome? I'm wondering if you are over-weighing possible holdings that he might have in order to justify a clever play. You could, though, be onto something here...

    A genuine question, not trying to generate a specific response.
  • Miles HMiles H Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
    I have no experience with him, so I dont know if he folds AJ/AT. But a lot of players in these limits do. Means, I think it's in a possible range of him but how likely it is I was not sure about. Since, I know now what he called me with, I'd say it's likely.
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 280 ✭✭
    The answer to this question drives if your line is ok or not. If he folds worse hands and continues only with better, then your play doesn't make much money (except for folding out his 30-40% equity share).

    If your line stacks AT/AJ/A8, then nice hand.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭
    Villains tend to be even more ABC in 3! pots & are rarely floating CBs w/ A high on unpaired boards out of position, so really were hoping he turns a very very tiny # of FD into a bluff here, or is going for super thin value w/ hands were not even sure are in their range. I'd fold as a default, but the fact your line/sizing looks so weak it leans me somewhat more toward calling, but I probably still fold. Pre/flop/turn all look standard, though you could bet the turn, or just check the flop to begin with.
  • Miles HMiles H Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
    Monad wrote: »
    Villains tend to be even more ABC in 3! pots & are rarely floating CBs w/ A high on unpaired boards out of position, so really were hoping he turns a very very tiny # of FD into a bluff here, or is going for super thin value w/ hands were not even sure are in their range. I'd fold as a default, but the fact your line/sizing looks so weak it leans me somewhat more toward calling, but I probably still fold. Pre/flop/turn all look standard, though you could bet the turn, or just check the flop to begin with.


    I just dont see that many value hands in his range. 99 would make some sense but it's very unlikely. 33 and 55 would also probably just fold pre. And what kind of flushes would he have? JT/KQ/QJ of spades? I block a queen and the fact he didnt lead the river make me lean more towards a bluff. And when he tanks for such a long time before deciding to jam, it appears to be more weak than strong, doesnt it?
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    Miles H wrote: »
    I dont always 3bet AQo especially against an ep raiser, yet here I decided to go for it for no particular reason, but I intended to fold against a reasonable large 4bet. Villain and I are the bigger stacks at the table and since I have position on him I thought it might be a good spot to test him.

    I think it's important to know why you're 3-betting with AQo. It's good that you have a plan, but we need to know why we take the path we take.

    A good reason I find to 3-bet with AQo is because you'll avoid raising only your premium pocket pairs, making it too easy to play against you, for isolation and to put pressure on your opponents. There are many players left to act here, if you cold-call there's a good chance that more players will tag along and while AQ is a strong hand It's not going to do you much favor in a multi-way pot so I think raising here is good to iso the pre-flop raiser. Last but not least we want to raise for value, if we believe villain is opening up wider than AQo then it's fine to get value from worse holdings.
    Miles H wrote: »
    He calls the 3bet oop.

    Flop: (5,940) :3d :9d :5s (2 players)
    UTG+2 checks, Hero bets 2,970, UTG+2 calls 2,970

    Not a particular great flop for the both of us it seems. I think checking back here is totally fine, and maybe go for a delayed cbet, but I decided to cbet here for two reasons: I represent the big overpairs and he could easily find a fold with 66-88 and AQ, whereas, at the same time I could get value from AT-AJ.

    You're not really getting value from AT-AJ because these holdings are not calling you for half pot, you don't have any proper draws other than overcards and you're only really folding out much worse holdings. Most players have learned to not give up on the flop so they'll most definitely float you with their medium pocket pairs so you'll need to be ready to make a turn bet with air when they call your flop-bet. If you believe that villain is very flop-honest you can make the c-bet, but you can make it way smaller. There's no need to make a half-pot bluff when a third-pot bet would accomplish the exact same thing, giving you a better price on your bluff. Your chips are more valuable in tournaments than in cash-games so you can afford to bet smaller without appearing weak because in a tourney many will do the exact same thing with a value hand where they're trying to extract as much value as possible from thin holdings.

    Your range doesn't only consists of high pocket pairs, it also consists of broad-way cards that missed the flop and most players will call you 1-2 streets with their medium pairs. A small c-bet isn't terrible but I'd much rather lean towards checking, especially without a back-door draw such as a flush-draw, and then see if villain is ready to give you action on the turn. If villain bets the turn you can assume he has something and either decide to give it up or raise him and put him in a very awkward situation here he's going to have to fold many hands that have you beat and only continue with his best. Your raise on a turn after checking the flop (still being the original aggressor pre-flop) will appear very strong and yet you'll get a much cheaper price not having blown up the put on the flop, i.e. pot-control.
    Miles H wrote: »
    Turn: (11,880) :As (2 players)
    UTG+2 checks, Hero checks

    This is a great card for me. The only hand in his range that has me beat is a set of 99 (Im neglecting the fact of him slow-playing AA.). At the same time it's probably scary for him. I dont think he would call two more streets with some second best pairs and since I dont fear many river cards I decided to check-back. Disguise my Ace and make it look like I am the one who is scared and maybe induce a bluff or at least get some decent value.
    We both check.

    This is a problem. It's too obvious if you're only betting your airs and checking your good hands. You're not extracting the value you want here, anyway. You bet the flop, villain puts you on a pocket pair that he can possibly beat or an ace and he can just as likely have an ace that you want worse aces to pay you. A decent pocket pair is not folding to a bet here, just because an ace appears doesn't mean you have one, and you want absolute max value from worse aces. If he folds here, he probably had a small pocket pair that's folding river anyway most of the time or a flush-draw that you want to charge, no need to give him a free card.

    Not really going to discuss river in details because it is what it is, it's a fine line to induce action from someone or get payed by terrible holdings but most of the time you'll get more value from raising bigger since villain obviously has something (unless he has busted-flush-draw). The moment your hand actually got strong you started to try to minimize your value, that's one of the biggest concerns.

    A bit of a rant but hopefully I've made a few points.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭
    edited September 15
    Miles H wrote: »
    Monad wrote: »
    Villains tend to be even more ABC in 3! pots & are rarely floating CBs w/ A high on unpaired boards out of position, so really were hoping he turns a very very tiny # of FD into a bluff here, or is going for super thin value w/ hands were not even sure are in their range. I'd fold as a default, but the fact your line/sizing looks so weak it leans me somewhat more toward calling, but I probably still fold. Pre/flop/turn all look standard, though you could bet the turn, or just check the flop to begin with.


    I just dont see that many value hands in his range. 99 would make some sense but it's very unlikely. 33 and 55 would also probably just fold pre. And what kind of flushes would he have? JT/KQ/QJ of spades? I block a queen and the fact he didnt lead the river make me lean more towards a bluff. And when he tanks for such a long time before deciding to jam, it appears to be more weak than strong, doesnt it?

    33/55 should probably be in there. He'll have an occasional A9s, 99. I realize that's very few combos, but recs/randoms tend to be heavily weighted toward value and not reading your line/sizing the same way you are. Also there are very few draws that x/c flop, missed, & are now bluffing you. Like I said, it's not a bad spot to hero call for reasons already discussed, but folding is likely optimal, & over analyzing these spots without reads is tedious and largely a fool's errand.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16
    Miles H wrote: »
    and the fact he didnt lead the river make me lean more towards a bluff.
    I'm still thinking this over. V certainly isn't required to bet a strong hand on the river. However, if they believe you hold an underpair to the A, then betting the river may make more sense from them as a bluff. They may fear you'll simply check back a hand like KK on the river and take away their option to bluff. But, maybe V's ideal bluff and value lines overlap here.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭✭
    3d5s9dAs9s

    98s-T9s, 33, 55, 99, A9s, 76s, AdKd-AdTd
    Bluffs JdTd-KdQd,

    Probably fold without any stats. Strong trappy line from villain. Its like 20% call \ 80% fold for me.
  • Miles HMiles H Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
    Well, thanks for your feedback everyone. Definitely some good advice, I try to implement into my game.
    Austin wrote: »
    3d5s9dAs9s

    98s-T9s, 33, 55, 99, A9s, 76s, AdKd-AdTd
    Bluffs JdTd-KdQd,

    Probably fold without any stats. Strong trappy line from villain. Its like 20% call \ 80% fold for me.

    In the end, he showed :8s :8h and I won the pot.