Post flop 3 bet call

HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
edited April 2015 in Live Poker Hands
5/10 cash game in casino
Hero 3200 behind. tag. Early to mid position pfr.
Villain on button 2200 behind. Lag who was caught betting flop turn and river w ace on flop and k on turn while holding 88. Talking at the table about how he is 0-6 on flush draws-all spots he should not have been in. In total he is in for at least 4000.
Hero makes it 40 w qq
Villain flats
Flop is 38j w two hearts
Hero makes it 55 and villain makes it 250.
Hero makes it 650 and villain flats.
Hero accepts villain could have set or two pair but figures he would have continued pushing the action. Villain does have position but the villain hasn't demonstrated any trapping tendencies....mostly aggressive acts. Hero puts villain on combo draws, flush draws, and jacks. Hero feels Villain def would have reraised w jj pre flop. Turn 9 club bringing gutshot which seems unlikely unless villain is holding q10 hrts or 710 hrts. Hero puts that as small part of villains overall range and figures in total hero is ahead w smaller possibility he is far behind. Hero checks to allow the lag to satisfy his specific leak which is putting to much into the pot and the hero plan is to chk raise. Hero does not think any better hands will fold but does think lesser hands could call w this villain-flush draws and jack. Villain bets 800. Hero shoves. Villain tanks and grumbles "u have kk or qq don't u". And calls. River comes ace off suit. Hero tables qq and says u just sucked out w aj didn't u? Villain mucks and says I had a jack.
My question is was the Heros turn play insane? Should the hero have interpreted the villains 3 bet flat on the flop as very strong and bet folded or chk called turn?
Hero thinks he played the player well but in retrospect realizes he may have lost his entire stack w just a pair...not something this tag usually allows to happen.
Thx in advance.
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Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with Hero's interpretation. One question would be what would have happened if he shoved flop on you? Once he called, with the draws in play and his style, he is not trapping you with top two or whatever. He also sounds extremely tilted and this has to be taken into account, even though you are naturally uncomfortable going to the felt with one pair. NH.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭✭
    I love this hand. Let's get it! #Boom
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    If he shoved the flop which had around 80 before my 55 Cbet so basically he would be putting in 2160 into a pot of 135...I think I snap fold....not worth it for me...there r other positive ev spots for me with less risk.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Haha, no, after your raise, is the more serious question.

    In other words, what is your interpretation of his range if he 4 bets flop rather than flats and did you have a plan for that?
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    That does make more sense...:)
    Yes. I fold....but if I was in a spot where I felt the villain had a tendency to 4 bet light on the flop I would adjust- but I have not seen that at 5/10 2000....maybe at higher stakes.
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    If u mean to ask why fold to the four bet on flop but check raise on turn...my answer is on the flop-when he four bets-I have shown nothing but strength and he has no indication to think I will go anywhere so it makes it likely he is strong. When I chk the turn-he feels strong like bull and he views me as weak...so he tries to pounce on me----he has reason to think I'm weak-cuz I gave him that reason-i kept bluffs/thin value bets in his range....and he loves that...that's where this villain lives. So me chk raising turn-imho-is very different than me folding to his flop 4 bet. Now if I chk turn and he shoves remaining 1500 into a pot of 1400 I probably find a fold. Please attack me if u disagree.
  • ColepietschColepietsch Red Chipper Posts: 33
    NH! Sounds like this villain is living in tilt town when this hand comes up. I like being in the position to check raise a tilt town resident with overpairs because they're just unintelligently bluffing. Of course the ace rolls off just to get the blood pressure up. As if a 4k+ pot isn't enough :)
  • folds2muchfolds2much Red Chipper Posts: 24
    Full disclosure: I am friends with Herocaller and have debated this hand extensively with him. I have nearly no experience at 5/10 so my observations are more in line with my 2/5 experience.

    My range for villain after he FLATs the $650 is defined as middle and bottom set, top two, TPTK, and an OESFD and less often top set. I feel like the action post flop has eliminated most naked flush and gut shot straight draws and I would assume that guys at 5/10 do not show up in a super aggressive pot with TPMK very often (perhaps my lack of experience at this level). Herocaller has leveraged his stack in a way that villain has to know it is all going in by the river so I feel like to flat the post flop 3-bet villain needs to have a lot of outs or a decent made hand. As you can tell by my handle I am well aware of the mistake that holds my game back the most. Question #1: Is my range construction too skewed towards strong made hands? We are rarely ahead and drawing mighty thin against my range. Herocaller had "Playing the Player" type information that he effectively used but when the money gets big I am inclined to assume that people play much more straightforwardly. Even bad players make sets and two pair. Question #2: If we lacked the reads from playing with villain for 8-10 hours, do we still like Herocallers play or is my range closer to what we have to assume villain is continuing with? Question #3: Getting back to the issue of if villain shoves the flop...The range I would construct at this decision point actually has significantly more hands that I beat in it...I could see villain raising or shoving TPMK and naked flush draws (especially naked nut flush draws) much more often than calling with them. So making, a long first post short, doesn't heros hand play better against villains raising range than his flatting range?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭✭
    First of all, it never ceases to amuse me how villains put heroes on specific hands. In this hand, villain thinks you have KK or QQ, but apparently AA is completely out of your range, either because it's virtually impossible to have, or you would have played it completely differently! Weird.

    Anyway, how surprising that CS said he loves it! Shocking! :) I saw that post coming before I even read it. CS plays higher stakes games than I usually do. I have played 5/10 and 10/25, but not in a casino environment with a bunch of pros at the table - only against local donks who simply loved playing high stakes. I think CS's strategies are a little skewed toward $5/10-type players.

    Having said that, I like the play here. But to me, "red chip poker" means $1/2 and $2/5, since $5/10 uses different chips mostly, ha ha. So sometimes I feel hands from, and advice for, games $5/10 and above are sort like cheating a little in this particular poker forum. I like the Red Chip books and forum specifically because it targets the lower stakes games, and all the exploits, as opposed to uber-balancing.

    I can tell you that in the vast majority of $1/2 games I play, casino or local, and most $2/5 games as well, when this deep stacked, you are virtually always behind here. There are lots of donks, but when they reach for stacks in this situation, you're beat. And the good players are not bluffing here because they know they get called too often. I think I'm kind of in line with folds2much here.

    But the game was not $1/2, and hero's reads and analysis actually seem pretty good to me, all things considered. Especially the villain call of the 3-bet on the flop - that was a big clue.
  • folds2muchfolds2much Red Chipper Posts: 24
    For me the crux of the debate comes down to the precise meaning of the flat call of the post flop 3-bet. I operate under the assumption that decent players need a stronger hand to call with than to bet with. However, there are plenty of players that feel that a hand like TP is too strong to fold and too weak to raise so they can justify in their mind that flatting is a reasonable compromise. Stacks are in play in this hand and it is a big, deep game. While their exists evidence that villain may be tilting and makes post flop mistakes are there enough weaker hands that we can add to my original range to justify ignoring my thesis at the top of this post...a call is stronger than a bet?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭✭
    Well, I just think "a call is stronger than a bet" is a little too general. For example, there is $500 in the pot on the turn and you have $100 behind. You have only a flush draw to the nuts and you know villain has an overpair. You act first. What do you do? Villain bets $100. What do you do?

    It sounds very plausible that villain could have a flush draw in his range here. He tried semi-bluffing, it didn't work, but many villains never fold a flush draw on the flop no matter what, but they also don't shove, especially after their semi-bluff didn't work.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @folds, I can't agree with your assessment of his flatting range. Villain has multiple incentives to continue raising value hands on a drawing board, and can certainly be flatting with draws given it looks like hero is not folding to further aggression.

    (That's in part why I asked the question about what hero would do if villain did make the four bet.)
  • folds2muchfolds2much Red Chipper Posts: 24
    Would you guys (or anybody for that matter) mind posting your range estimates for villain in two scenarios? The first scenario is where villain flats the 3-bet. The second where villain 4-bets post flop? I would love to see how your equities differ from mine. Perhaps I will be able to change my handle someday!
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm loving the convo discussion on this thread right now & I'm loving the hand!

    I was gonna post a video response but I'm gonna let you guys duke it out for a little bit longer :-)

    say this: I think OP played this hand like an endboss.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote:

    Anyway, how surprising that CS said he loves it! Shocking! :) I saw that post coming before I even read it. CS plays higher stakes games than I usually do. I have played 5/10 and 10/25, but not in a casino environment with a bunch of pros at the table - only against local donks who simply loved playing high stakes. I think CS's strategies are a little skewed toward $5/10-type players.

    Having said that, I like the play here. But to me, "red chip poker" means $1/2 and $2/5, since $5/10 uses different chips mostly, ha ha. So sometimes I feel hands from, and advice for, games $5/10 and above are sort like cheating a little in this particular poker forum. I like the Red Chip books and forum specifically because it targets the lower stakes games, and all the exploits, as opposed to uber-balancing.

    I think that's very unfair IMO. I would like to think the people on here appreciate me coming on here and talking about the things I do.

    I try to challenge you all to think about the game more deeply and present you with different views that you won't necessarily find everywhere and anywhere.

    For me to feel like I'm doing a good job with RedChip, I have to present how the game is changing, new trends, and thought processes. The other option is to let the game pass us by.

    Fortunately, I'm not the only voice at RCP. So I think it's OK if maybe I present different things. If we are all saying to Bet/Fold every hand - where is the value?

    I understand your view. But I work really hard at this game. I'm putting my thoughts and hard work out here for you guys.

    To say that I'm "cheating the forum a little" is unfair. I think it's the other way around; I'm cheating you guys if I just always hold back.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe I took it a little harsh. But I take this very seriously. :-(
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,592 -
    jeffnc wrote:
    Anyway, how surprising that CS said he loves it! Shocking! :) I saw that post coming before I even read it. CS plays higher stakes games than I usually do. I have played 5/10 and 10/25, but not in a casino environment with a bunch of pros at the table - only against local donks who simply loved playing high stakes. I think CS's strategies are a little skewed toward $5/10-type players.

    Having said that, I like the play here. But to me, "red chip poker" means $1/2 and $2/5, since $5/10 uses different chips mostly, ha ha. So sometimes I feel hands from, and advice for, games $5/10 and above are sort like cheating a little in this particular poker forum. I like the Red Chip books and forum specifically because it targets the lower stakes games, and all the exploits, as opposed to uber-balancing.

    While we don't focus most of our material on $5/$10+ games, poker concepts are universal. Sure they don't apply in all situations (like we don't really care about balancing against a manic), but it's nice to have some advanced concepts in our pocket the times they do arise (better to have and not need, than need and not have =) ). Playing against aggro and balanced individuals can happen at any time at any limit, although they are more common in higher stakes games as you pointed out.

    I think what makes this forum so great is that we all can talk about poker hands from an educational level and help players at all limits. That, and we don't exclude anyone or any hand just because it doesn't fit our exact mold. All hands and ideas are welcome because all hands and ideas force us to think and become better players =)

    Yes, Soto is aggro as hell and plays in bigger games. But the community benefits when he shares his ideas and prods creative thoughts and plays out of every reader :heart
    Check out my latest course - The Hand Reading Lab
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭✭
    Word. Now let's get back to this hand! :-)
  • folds2muchfolds2much Red Chipper Posts: 24
    I need some people out there to suggest 1. What range can villain have to call the 3 bet and 2. What range does villain have to 4 bet. I need some weaker hands than I currently range villain to justify getting my stack in..
  • InTheMiddleInTheMiddle Red Chipper Posts: 2
    As the name suggests, I am good friends with both Herocaller and Foldstoomuch. I enjoy getting out of line barking at them for acting like their handles. I'm also the third best player and third smartest of this illustrative trio. Preamble over.

    When Herocaller first emailed about this hand it was without any insights on villain. After being happy for my friend taking down a stack I texted foldstoomuch to ask if I was nuts for thinking this hand was played poorly by both players. The three of us duking it out led to this thread (and will be the subject of a major motion picture during the summer of 2016).

    I've played 5-10 at the same casino and generally the adage is true, when the money gets big on the turn and river, villain has a hand because the bluffing frequency is too low. I love the insight and read on the villain but am stuck on the questions posed by foldstoomuch (really, a shorter handle would have killed you?). I tend to find the call indicative of more strength on the flop than a shove and I think I'd have been done feeding the pot following the flop action. Maybe bet/fold (I tend to play pretty aggro at the 5-10 as well).

    When the villain/LAG straightforwardly flips over top 2 or middle/bottom sets and scoops my chips I would be too ashamed to post this hand. Had Herocaller presented this without the results and less of the read I am curious how the board reacts (yeah, I understand the need for inclusion). I don't want to go broke making a hero call or a hero shove because I have a read on a villain who is pretending he has a monster. Sometimes donks hit monsters.

    I am interested in the questions posed. How do people react to the in position called 3 bet? sign of strength or range capping because he didn't just shove (which is what I'd have done if I was running this bluff as only JJ should call in my opinion)? what hand ranges can we assign to do a proper equity analysis?

    I remain, hopelessly, InTheMiddle.
  • Renato_LRenato_L Red Chipper Posts: 190
    I'll give it a shot for the flatting range. I think a realistic range can be the following:

    :Ah :Xh ; :A? :J? ; :J? { :K? - :Q? , :T? }; :9? :T? ; :Qh { :Th - :9h }; :7h { :9h - :Th }

    I actually take out 33, 88, and JJ from his range because if there are 2 hearts on flop, I would think most people would rip it right there rather than just flat a 3 bet.
  • SCP00SCP00 Red Chipper Posts: 72 ✭✭
    From a point of view of a guy that plays smaller stakes, when u get flatted in this spot, u are ahead. He showed a lot of weakness in the flop. It would be different if it was a dry rainbow flop. He has a strong jack or a strong draw. I wouldn't even check-raise the turn. I would bomb the turn to deny him the equity in case he checks behind. And if he flatted u in the flop, he probably would do the same in the turn. So I would continue.
  • folds2muchfolds2much Red Chipper Posts: 24
    Renato,
    Thanks for taking a stab at the range. I think one piece of information that I have that you do not is that Herocaller holds the :Qh . I removed those holding from the range you assigned to villain. So the main difference between your range and mine is that I felt like naked flush draws and straight draws were priced out. They certainly are not getting the direct odds to pursue (villain needs to call $400 into a pot of about $995) and certainly the flush draw can't assume he is going to stack Herocaller if it peels. I can accept the naked NFD might call especially if villain holds :Ah :Kh and has the additional overs as outs but the gut shots and the OESD I am on the fence about. They are really drawing quite thin in a pot that is getting large in a hurry (although the straight draws are much more concealed than the flush draw). I personally would rather fold those or turn those hands into semi-bluffs, knowing that I have outs if Herocaller finds a call. I would be interested if the coaches think guys continue with draws that have so few outs in a pot that is likely only win-able if he improves. FWIW, Renatos range gives Herocaller 82% equity on the turn when the money goes in, which if this is a legit range is clearly good enough to shove.

    The biggest problem I am still wrestling with is this...is the 3-bet call strong or weak? I will readily agree that if villain only called the c-bet that his range is really capped and Herocaller is free to barrel away. However, I feel like a call of a post flop 3-bet does not cap the range of villain in the same way that calling the c-bet does.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I might take a crack at composing a range, but I can more easily start here:
    folds2much wrote:
    So the main difference between your range and mine is that I felt like naked flush draws and straight draws were priced out. They certainly are not getting the direct odds to pursue (villain needs to call $400 into a pot of about $995) and certainly the flush draw can't assume he is going to stack Herocaller if it peels.

    I don't think this is true about Villain. First of all, he does have implied odds; just look at the stack depth. Much more importantly, look at the description of Villain. He's just not this careful player you are making him out to be. He's not thinking about the hand the way you would- not at all.

    As to the range of draws and hands themselves, if anything, it is wider than what Renato suggests. He is a loose player with the button. His range started incredibly wide.
    folds2much wrote:
    The biggest problem I am still wrestling with is this...is the 3-bet call strong or weak? I will readily agree that if villain only called the c-bet that his range is really capped and Herocaller is free to barrel away. However, I feel like a call of a post flop 3-bet does not cap the range of villain in the same way that calling the c-bet does.

    This is also problematic. The draws are there, and the big Ax heart hands are in Hero's range, not villain's. (As a relevant aside to your post, Villain really can't have AKhh, as he would have 3bet, therefore, he can think he is up against AKhh and the like. He very much has incentive to continue raising for value and protection. Everyone is afraid of letting draws get there; and they will kill his action as much as the reverse. Even more importantly, once again, remember who we are dealing with. Villain is losing. He is aggressive. He simply has to be inclined to raise his biggest made hands.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭✭
    I understand your view. But I work really hard at this game. I'm putting my thoughts and hard work out here for you guys.

    To say that I'm "cheating the forum a little" is unfair. I think it's the other way around; I'm cheating you guys if I just always hold back.

    Of course you work hard at your game, and with helping forum members. I think you misunderstood my comment. I didn't say you were cheating the forum. I think you saw your name at the top of my post and extrapolated a little from there. I was just making a joke because you tend to be aggressive and I was just having fun with it. As soon as I read the question, I had a feeling I was going to read a post like that from you! But, the comments after that were aimed at poker advice in general.

    Let me try to make this more clear. I think one of the reasons a number of people came to this site is the book Poker Plays You Can Use. That book is all about "red chip" poker - i.e. relatively low stakes live play, full of exploits. Exploits is really where it's at at the low stakes, and balancing takes a back seat, especially in a casino environment where the tables are a big game of musical chairs. As Doug put it, we're playing against the herd range, or herd balancing, or whatever it was.

    Now I happen to agree with both you and SS - I study all aspects of the game, so I can play against a wider range of players, and understand the game from multiple angles. Better to have it and not need it all the time, than not have it when you need it.

    So, my comment about "cheating" was aimed at the general population, and I certainly didn't mean "shortchanging" anyone. What I meant was it's "fudging" or biasing or skewing in general with some of the discussions here. Specifically, I think some low stakes hands are being treated as if the villains were are better than they are. It's not that we don't want to learn to play against better players, it's that in many of these hands, we're simply not. I think some of the reasons the villains are making some of the choices they're making are different than if stronger players made them, and I think we should consider what those reasons are.

    This is just my opinion, and hopefully it's worthy of some thought even if it's wrong. But I'm listening to all the questions on the forum since I joined and my impression is that the vast majority of players are truly playing Red Chip Poker. I'm just saying IMO we should keep that in mind.

    I'm not really sure why this came out in this thread, because as I said previously, I actually like this play here, as you do.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭✭
    How do people react to the in position called 3 bet? sign of strength or range capping because he didn't just shove (which is what I'd have done if I was running this bluff as only JJ should call in my opinion)?

    Maybe that's what some of us are not understanding. Why would he raise, and then just call, with a set of jacks? That play doesn't make any sense to me. There are basically 2 lines most players take with this hand: call (slowplay) or reraise/shove (either get excited, or make hero's potential dray pay big.)

    So while "calling is stronger than raising" makes sense very generally, I don't see how it applies here.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭✭
    folds2much wrote:
    So the main difference between your range and mine is that I felt like naked flush draws and straight draws were priced out. They certainly are not getting the direct odds to pursue (villain needs to call $400 into a pot of about $995) and certainly the flush draw can't assume he is going to stack Herocaller if it peels.

    That's not really relevant with a lot of villains, and you certainly can't assume he thinks that way. Or he might think that way, but in the heat of battle he doesn't actually make those choices. They don't always think it through logically. Sometimes the thought process is literally "I have a flush draw - I call." Obviously if he actually has a flush draw here, his thought process is slightly more complicated: "I'm going to raise as a semi-bluff. Oh shoot, so much for that idea. Well, I still have a flush draw. I call."
    folds2much wrote:
    The biggest problem I am still wrestling with is this...is the 3-bet call strong or weak?

    It's both. I mean that in the quantum physics sense. We sometimes have to play our hands like both are possible, and play against that range. Obviously, he doesn't have both on this hand, but in the longer term EV sense, villains will have both often enough that you can't keep folding here (or flat calling either, obviously). I think villains have draws/combo draws/and AJ here pretty often, actually. (I would have thrown up a little in my mouth when I saw the river card.) Maybe villain actually had JTs, but he can't be concerned about his kicker since obviously he thinks he's going to see smaller pocket pairs and AK (they always put you on AK) often enough, or else he wouldn't even get to showdown.
  • folds2muchfolds2much Red Chipper Posts: 24
    I can accept that on the wet board that stronger hands are willing to press the action with a 4bet and weaker hands compromise by calling. If the board is dry the stronger hands go into trap mode and are more likely to show up in the calling range and the weaker hands in the 4 betting range. I also agree that I am crediting this particular villain with too much game theory but it has been a worthwhile discussion I believe in a generic sense. I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I look forward to hearing what CS has to say in his video.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭✭
    folds2much wrote:
    I can accept that on the wet board that stronger hands are willing to press the action with a 4bet and weaker hands compromise by calling. If the board is dry the stronger hands go into trap mode and are more likely to show up in the calling range and the weaker hands in the 4 betting range.

    OK, so let's assume the flop is :2s :6d :Jc . Now, when you say "compromise by calling", do you mean calling the bet, or calling the 3-bet? When you say "trap mode", do you mean calling the bet, or calling the 3-bet?

    On a dry board like this, there are basically 3 categories of hands villain could have: sets, pairs, or bluffs (perhaps gutshot bluffs at best). 2 pairs are out for reasonable players, and so are semi-bluffs. So on this board, what hand exactly is going to raise our bet, but then just call? Not trappy hands like sets, because raising the flop isn't trappy. Very unlikely to be bluffs, because why would bluffs call a 3-bet? If he is tilting, then maybe gutshot bluffs. That leaves top pair. (Or let's say 1-pair hands - I suppose he might get frisky with A6).

    So basically what we're doing when the board is wet is adding hands like 2-pair, draws, and combo draws to his range. I don't see adding those things to his range as changing whether or not we're ahead very much.
  • folds2muchfolds2much Red Chipper Posts: 24
    On the wet board I meant that the weaker hands do exactly as you said...they raise once and then get re raised so they compromise by calling the 3 bet. As you or somebody said, "well my semi-bluff didn't work but I still have a flush draw with two to come" or "I have top pair and position so I can peel one here and see what happens." I didn't think through the dry board thoroughly. It is much harder to get the dry board to the point of the 3-bet call. If villain has a strong made hand he is likely to just smooth call behind the c-bet to let Herocaller continue to be the aggressor. With position he can bet when checked to or raise if the board starts developing unfavorably on the turn. His weaker hands he may attempt to turn into a bluff....Herocaller then continues to show strength with the re-raise and then the in position player doesn't know quite what to do? Perhaps, too weak to raise, too strong to fold? I don't know. I think you guys nailed it with the board texture. Strong made hands need to press the action and can get called by worse.
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