Overpair facing a donk

HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
edited April 2015 in Live Poker Hands
5:10 casino
Hero mp 3000 behind
Villain sb 650 behind
Hero raises to 40 w kk
Villain flats in sb and bb flats
Flop 577 rainbow
Villain donks 100
Bb folds
Hero is a little confused. The sb flat basically puts any card in her range
Hero flats
J turn
Villain shoves for 500 into 320
What should hero do?
The villain is an active player w some creativity but has never shown down air.


  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
    SPR is 5.4, just a tad large to be 100% comfortable getting it in with the overpair. But I'll do it happily based on the villain.

    I think this boils down to reads of the villain and situation. My first read is that people almost never have a 7 or 55 here - the urge to slowplay is too strong. I would put villain on AA before any 7.

    So.. any other info on villain available?
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    I just play 1/2 and I can see 1/2 players 'trapping' with :5? :5? or a :7? , but is that still the case at 5/10? Or would 5/10 players be more inclined to put pressure on an opponent who could have an over pair, such as this example?

    I ask out of curiosity.
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    She was def more lag than tag but never showed any evidence of being reckless in any way.
    It's funny u say that because I would play a 7 the same way on the flop. Turn probably a little bit differently.
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    Same way meaning I would donk and play it fast. If the pfr has ak I let them get away from it and lose the cbet BUT if they have an overpair they may raise me and I can raise them or flat and do some things on the turn or river which would be villain specific....
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would be raising the donk lead, and more than likely getting it in for 65 bbs without a better read or history.

    A clue that it is not a seven or better is she is short stacked and probably not a solid player, so a weak lead with an overpair is more probable than a seven. She should not be flatting the SB with many sevens, but should with pairs.
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    She is a "pro" at this casino for whatever that means.
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    So are we saying that even though her range contains more :5? s and :7? s than Hero's range (I think) it still doesn't contain that many? So over-pairs are more likely? Trying to push out :A? :K? , :A? :Q? , and the like?
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    Why raise the donk? If it's an overpair and ur right-ur crushing her....if u raise she gets away. If u call she may fire turn again. Ur letting a hand ur crushing get away and no better hand is folding. I know ir not worried about her two outs for the boat.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's just an element of the game you can take or leave- as part of my overall plan, I usually raise donk leads with my entire range, and KK is just a particularly strong part of it, one which protects my bluffs.

    Anyway, ignore my derail about how I would play it- her turn bet, as you point out, is not consistent with a value bet, so I probably just call it off if I take a bluff catching line, as you have done.
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    Makes sense
    I folded erroneously
    She said she had qq
  • ColepietschColepietsch Red Chipper Posts: 33
    If she plays 5-10 regularly I'm suprised she's not buying more chips. 650 with effective stacks of 2k+ is just not a good play in my mind. I'd def want to flat her donk flop bet and hope she bets again. The over bet is weird but if she'd been going bad or on her last bullet maybe she thought she'd just blindly put her money in. QQ makes since but any big cards do to. Even 68 possible
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @skors, what I am saying is that even if she is the one with the theoretical calling range, out of the SB she should be playing hands that have immediate showdown value, i.e., it's not a place for the 97 or such over call, therefore, the sevens are less likely than would appear from say, the button or the BB. The SB is the worst place to play drawing hands so she is confined to more of the best suited connectors, like 76ss, and even that is an error for her given her stack and position. Therefore, pairs show up here a lot. (It's even possible, since players love to misdeclare their hand after the pot is done, she could even have had AA, and Herocaller may have accidentally saved $500.)
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    She did not "show" so it's possible...
  • jimbo123jimbo123 Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    Raise flop, GII.

    As played I actually fold turn - if you've played with other regularly before, and she's never showed down air you're never good more than the 61% needed to make this a break-even call.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    I think it's a call as played

    Why is SB playing 65BB? Don't know how she got here but she is probably looking for a spot to push. Because of shortish stack I don't believe there is much in her flatting range but 22+. SC's don't make much sense ( I think 20x=$800 would make more sense) but she could flat hoping to smash a flop, seems like a weakish play. If she held :A? :A? I think a small preflop raise would be more likely just to set up the push scenario.

    If her range is as tight as it should be with 65BB, she has range advantage over you and probably knows it. She just doesn't know your at the top of yours. Versus even a 11% range, she is a favorite on this flop. She donks, you call (she probably expects to be raised a lot in this spot by the top of opponents range).

    :J? helps her range more than yours. She shoves her entire range on turn for value and some fold equity (she found it)

    Assuming 22+ range is right your a 75% fav. Take out :A? :A? and it's 83%
  • ivandurstivandurst Red Chipper Posts: 124 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote:
    I usually raise donk leads with my entire range, and KK is just a particularly strong part of it, one which protects my bluffs.

  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Im a little late for this party but i would like to say this..
    Most decent players never donking here with any real value hands..

    I mean why donk here with a 7? Why shove the turn with a 7?
    Why scare off any second best hand if they even have second best hand when you holding a 7?

    You know the way i look at donk is like this...
    Did i plan to cbet here? If so, i raise... if not, i fold...

    An exception would be if i plan to fold or for some reason play pot control and he leads small then i call...

    Sometimes if sizes are a bit funny, i would call flop and raise turn...

    The only time im taking a donk bet seriously is in a multiway pot.

    Now with that being said, the i agree with persuadeo and we should be looking into raising here in this spot.
    If he really have a 7 he is going to probably just shove and to be honest if he looks fishy enough im probably just really have to pay him off and hate life later but in most cases he can't shove without a 7 and fishy players tend to try over represent the 7 and i see that when i call him off i'm going to be good more than enough times. So the way im looking at it is when im facing a donk bet im riding a chance with variance and you have to be willing to fight for your "lead" in a pot because if anybody could just bet into you and take away your lead your in trouble simply because calling down here leads you into making more mistake than them and we never want that.

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
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  • starling81starling81 Red Chipper Posts: 88
    persuadeo wrote:
    I would be raising the donk lead, and more than likely getting it in for 65 bbs without a better read or history.

    I agree with persuadeo. Why bluff catch, raise the flop. If she is a player type who is a LAG as you described (though LAG with 65BB stack is just weird) she will be leading the flop with enough of hands that you beat. She has the same idea - not wanting to bluff catch with hands like 88-JJ. And vs 65BB stack you will be getting it in. There are cards on the turn that will stop the action - so just raise and get it in if she is willing. Sometimes you run into a 7, if so - then oh well, next hand.
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    I agree. I should have raised the donk for value as 88-qq call and it all gets in on the turn.
    My error.
    i find I'm having a tough time w donkers cuz I donk w a polarized range and rarely donk w vulnerable holding as is "typical". So I often look at board texture for help w interpreting a donk...so if it's q hi or k hi maybe donker had qj or k10....but w low cards I wouldn't have thought of qq donking....but clearly I'm the donk...:)
  • starling81starling81 Red Chipper Posts: 88
    Herocaller wrote:
    but clearly I'm the donk...:)

    Why? Cause you didn't think villain is donking the flop there with worse pairs? Oh well, i have natural reaction to the paired flops "omg, does this idiot have some weird crap like J7/T7/A7" and a lot of times i make the very same mistake of going into bluff catch mode for next 2 streets.

    Put pressure on them! Don't let em breathe easy, don't let them fart easy - its your air, your table, they just temporarily allowed to sit them cause you permit them out of kindness of your heart. NOW LET ME SEE YOUR WAR FACE! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :D :D :D

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