kJs not much of a discussion....

AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭✭
2 limpers from EP.
MP raises to 15
Hero (220) :Ks :Js folds.

I figured this pot would be 4-5 ways so folded becAuse SPR would be around 3-4.

Easy fold or am i suppose to call here?
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Comments

  • Jim MJim M Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Are you making these decisions with the players tendencies in mind? This hand plays very different depending on the 2 limpers, MP and everyone behind.
  • Zero CoolZero Cool Red Chipper Posts: 110 ✭✭
    If the chance of a 3-bet from those behind you is low then I'm usually calling.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25
    I'd have a hard time setting down such a pretty hand. Much different from the 76s. This hand can make top pair and 76s really can't. Sure, this might be dominated, but it has more potential to compete in the low SPR pot than 76s.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 661 ✭✭✭
    I'll take 1 flop or 3-bet please.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 661 ✭✭✭
    So let me expand on that.
    1. Yes, SPR is real. But it's a tool, not a law. If this goes 5 ways, wow $75 pot! One more street of betting and hey your jamming on the turn! Or is that so? MW pot's are often frozen, and this hand tends to improve as cards continue to run out, but also be good enough to bet on the flop. And your investing all of 7% of your stack with a hand that can flop hard in a lot of different ways. Are you potentially dominated? Sure. Flop comes K 8 4 rainbow and MP leads for $50...I may just fold. He's got a king or AA but certainty something that's better than mine. Here's how I kind of view SPR:
    1. How much am I initially investing
    2. How many people are in the pot. For example, someone opens to $25 1 caller and I have AQs in the small blind. Flop comes out Q 7 4 rainbow and they continue. I almost always have to call all the way down here to river, vs a hand like KJs which I can flop top pair and pretty easily get away from a strong EP opening raise. Same SPR of about 3, but a lot different because I am investing a larger % of my stack? When I am committing a large % of my stack to see a flop or before the flop, I need my hand to be able to hit the flop or be able to be good at show-down pre-flop or at the flop a direct correlation to the SPR or % I'm putting in. However, when I'm play a hand like KJs, in EP with these stacks...I may toss it. You seem to be in later position. You can commit 7% of you stack to see a flop here man, especially if people aren't likely to squeeze behind, and you won't be as compelled to take KJ to the felt if you flop like top pair.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    edited September 25
    Gosh folding KJs hurts here
    Austin wrote: »
    I figured this pot would be 4-5 ways so folded becAuse SPR would be around 3-4.
    If Villains like to limp-call, punish them! 3bet more (for isolation) ! Learn how to be comfortable playing 3bet pot. Learn how a 3bet merged range hits the board and how to continue either versus a 4-bet and on the flop if called.

    Folding KJs is so nitty. I think it's acceptable only if the PFR is a nit or a passive player who wakes up (=both times with a monster range which destroy KJs).
    Otherwise, and in most of situations, KJs should be a highly profitable hand, and not one to toss away after 1 bet...
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 296 ✭✭✭
    I almost feel trolled....
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 994 ✭✭✭
    edited September 25
    Easy fold.

    Can you top off to $300 or no? Floating around a 70BB stack is very unfortunate.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭✭
    Was some what of a passive table as most low stake games are. Meaning KJs is likely dominated. So im suppose to call a dominated hand and take it 3-5 ways with a low SPR. What am i hoping to hit? If im folding to half pot bet say $40-$60 on the flop say K9T, K82, J97, etc.

    I can't wrap my head around a call. Then stacking off with basically any fd. I think its similar to 76s because KJs going multiway holds almost same value. Maybe if pot was only 2-3 way.

    If KQ and AJ are folds. How can KJs be a call? Don't think the suiteness brings it up that much higher in value. Think il fold the flop 8 out of 10 times.

    More of a discussion than i thought.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭✭
    Monad wrote: »
    Easy fold.

    Can you top off to $300 or no? Floating around a 70BB stack is very unfortunate.

    Can't top off or i would buyin for 300.

    @ others. I know 3 betting is an option but feels pretty sick to 3 bet to like $55 get 1 caller flop (110ish) with $145 behind. I believe split suit article was very premium hand heavy.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    @Austin
    I think KJs is too strong to be folded. Otherwise, you only play a less than 10% range. You will turn into a NIT. And if you say Villains go usually MW - I assume you mean they like to limp-call - then either you call and play bingo poker (meh!) or 3-bet; and KJs is a good candidate for a 3-bet : MP-isolation (even better if preflop FE), position, double blocker, suited.

    Now you've to adapt your ranges and strategy to the table as poker isn't played in a vacuum. There is no absolute good answer. So :

    - Does MP always open 15$ or is it an unusual raise size? Bet sizing tells will give you many info.

    If it's a passive guy who wakes up, then KJs is a casual fold against a premium range.
    If it's a normal bet sizing for MP, then he has a normal MP range depending on his frequencies. A 3-bet is already an option (he has not only premiums); and more active he is, more I want to 3-bet him (bigger is the gap between open bet and continuation v. 3-bet)

    - How other Villains react to a 3-bet?
    If you've a fish after you who is going to cold call whatever, 3-betting is bad. He calls, inducing other to call as well. MP ain't gonna fold (good pot odds). MW in a bloated pot is to avoid.
    If limpers limp-call 2bet a lot, then a 3-bet is needed. Even with position, we want to avoid playing bingo poker as much as possible (see also below for more)
    If limpers limp-fold a lot, 3-bet is less mandatory.

    - 3-bet bet sizing: 55$ ?
    55$ created SPR problem. But do we need to size so big? Wouldn't 40 or 45$ have the same effect ?
    Bet sizing should be seen both to the players to comes AND to MP. If Villains to come are rather to fold to 3-bet, a small sizing is ok; otherwise you need to size bigger to isolate.
    About MP, I would size differently based on his reaction to 3-bet. Maybe he opens always 15$, but fold easily; so I want to size bigger to get a better preflop FE. Maybe he is more snug (unusual big open-bet) and seems to have a strong range; so I want to size smaller to be able either to make an cheap-ish fold v. 4bet or to take his range advantage postflop (flatting = no AA, and we block KK, JJ, AK, AJ, KQ, etc.).

    - But do we fold?
    Except with a strong read on MP being nitty, I'm never folding KJs. I either call or 3-bet depending on the best move to do.

    If Villains never fold, the good point is they will always have a wide range. Against a wide range, KJs is almost a value hand already.
    So by calling, we still see a flop - a flop we kinda have to play straightforwardly. But where we should have the best TP often (and we hit TP 21% of the time), a great FD (11%), top straight draw (3,6 and 12,6% for OESD and gutshots)... When we hit, we charge the pot. Harder we hit, bigger we bet postflop. And we want to play for stacks.
    Also if we have position, we still can steal some uncontested pot by stabbing IP. And more postflop FE we have, more often we can stab.

  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 994 ✭✭✭
    edited September 25
    @Red
    I think KJs is too strong to be folded. Otherwise, you only play a less than 10% range. You will turn into a NIT.

    You're overstating your case. We'd only play <=10% when calling or raising facing an EP raise in middle-position. Sometimes you widen your range, sometimes you narrow it -- all depends. This is a relational game, after all. Making good folds does not make you a NIT. More often than not it actually prints you $$$ in these games.

    IDK what you consider a "normal range" when a random 5x's over limps in EP/MP at a low-stakes game, but we're only 40% vs a reasonable estimate of [66+,AJ+,ATs+,JTs+,KJo+]. We're also out of position. Beyond that, the SPR affords no flexibility. Furthermore, we don't have initiative. 3-betting in an effort to claim initiative vs. villain's narrow range (that in fact plays better the more you bloat the pot for him/her) w/ low fold-equity w/ players acting behind is, in my estimate, a spew, especially without reads. On the flip-side, if we flat we're forcibly committed in a family-pot w/ TP and/or most draws (again, with almost no fold-equity) against a range that dominates us when stacks go in. All of this really sucks for us, and why being disciplined (not nitty) when appropriate, pays.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 721 ✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    If KQ and AJ are folds. How can KJs be a call? Don't think the suiteness brings it up that much higher in value. Think il fold the flop 8 out of 10 times.

    The suitedness makes all the difference.

    Say that you play AJo, and an A or J hits the flop. When then many people see the flop, top pair or TPTK doesn't seem tremendously strong to me when others are leading or giving action. Heads-up or even three-way, then, yeah, I'm happy. Multi-way, and AJo looks like a hand where I'm likely to lose my stack if an A or J hit.

    With KJs, I'm less likely to lose my stack if a K or J hits since I'm more likely to be behind -- and get away from the hand. But, if I DO get my money in, it's because I have a massive draw. I'd much rather play this hand for the draw potential than the hard K or the hard J.

    The fact that both are broadway cards, though, is also far more appealing that, say, 76s. If a J hits and the flop all checks with the turn being an undercard, there is enough of a chance that the J might hold -- that's your additional equity over 76s.

    In sum, if you are pretty sure that you'll go 5-way by calling with no raise behind, then this is a decent hand to call with -- but only because of suitedness.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    @Monad : that's why for an exploitative fold we need more info. I put some hints on how I would make the decision, but these are just part of the decision.

    Like bet sizing. 15$ is my standard opening bet in 1/2. I tend not to change my bet sizing against 1 or 2 limpers, but some will (like 3x+0.5x/limper).
    So for me the info of MP betting 15$ against 2 limpers gives an info... but without further info on table dynamic and MP bet sizing tendencies, it's hard to understand what it means - and hard to know how we shall respond to it at best.

    What's sure is that if you fold KJs, you should also fold KJo, AT, QJ which perform kinda similarly. And all weaker combos as well. What do you still play except TT+/AQ+/KQ? (And you will be capped as I expect you to 3bet the part of these combos too.) This is imho way too tight.

    And a last thing: don't put too much weight on equity preflop. This % for example doesn't include how a hand evolve on a board. Preflop 66 is ahead of KJ, but the versatility of KJ is much higher and will make it win more pots nonetheless... ;)
  • star681star681 Red Chipper Posts: 181 ✭✭
    kj= herpes no cure, kjs = herpies possible mircle cure. ggoodd fold
  • star681star681 Red Chipper Posts: 181 ✭✭
    show me a large pot won with kj without sucking out and ill show u a unicorn, or a novice on the other end of it
  • star681star681 Red Chipper Posts: 181 ✭✭
    kjvs66/ thats not going to be a big pot,,,,,,kj6,,,,big but not for kj unless suckout
  • star681star681 Red Chipper Posts: 181 ✭✭
    kqs ajs full spped ahead call kqs 3 bet ajs
  • star681star681 Red Chipper Posts: 181 ✭✭
    someone lumped broadway cards into 1 grouping? wrong
  • star681star681 Red Chipper Posts: 181 ✭✭
    u could lump kblock q block jblock and tblock and then split those off into s and off
  • star681star681 Red Chipper Posts: 181 ✭✭
    edited September 25
    76s farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr better, clear lose small or win big,,,,,vs kj if its big ur losing big, or u may win small. and have to leave table to wash hands of herpes adter touching j,,,and in that time miss kqs
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 896 ✭✭✭✭
    This thread has been officially hijacked.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 994 ✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    This thread has been officially hijacked.

    nyqo57xam88e.jpg
  • Chris FChris F Red Chipper Posts: 145 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    2 limpers from EP.
    MP raises to 15
    Hero (220) :Ks :Js folds.

    I figured this pot would be 4-5 ways so folded becAuse SPR would be around 3-4.

    Easy fold or am i suppose to call here?

    Ok so I didn't go thru the other replies but heres my thoughts:

    What are the stakes? Im guessing a NL 1/2 game.
    Whats the gameflow? Is his raise a large one or a typical one for that table? Furthermore, what type of player is he? The decision can change based on how tight or loose he plays and how he likes to play.
    Whats the effective stack?
    I'm assuming you're on the BTN?! Was there players left to act behind you?

    An accurate answer requires more information. So much of what we do depends on having accurate information of the many variables that makes up NL Holdem. With that said... in 1/2 I rarely like to call a raise. Rather, I ask myself, "is my hand strong enough to 3-bet?" If not then I usually fold. Some exceptions would be calling to trap with a premium hand, set mining with good implied odds (look up the 15-25-35 rule) or calling any time the mathematical odds dictate to.

    Also look at your hand through the lens of Hunter's Four Preflop Profitability Generators:

    1) Card Edge
    2) Initiative
    3) Position
    4) Skill Edge

    If you call will you have the best hand? Depends on the opponent. A tight, positionally aware, player raising from MP.... debatable.

    Will you have initiative? Not if you just call.

    Will you have position? Yes.

    Do you feel like you have the skill edge? Will you be able to outplay him on the flop?

    Hope this helped.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    - call with combos to the nuts. Especially pocket pairs and AXs

    Furthermore, I think flatting good broadways like KQo is a mistake. You gonna be too often behind a strong range on high board and too easily outflop on medium-to-low board. These make but good 3-bet combos I think.

    I didn't think I could 3 bet easily given my stack size.
    Austin wrote: »
    cknnxzv3j8b9.png
    standard calling range given shorter stack games.
    Jim M wrote: »
    Are you making these decisions with the players tendencies in mind? This hand plays very different depending on the 2 limpers, MP and everyone behind.

    I should have listed table dynamics as table was pretty loose. Several pots someone would raise to $15-$20 and get 4-5 ways. Most of the original raises were strong premiums, but some of the callers were crazy wide including 52o or J2o.

    Being the callers ranges i'm ahead of it still feels like super high variance to call and be willing to stack off on Kxx board because their ranges are wide. Stack off vs the callers, but fold if the original raiser bets?
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    I almost feel trolled....

    you are not being trolled sir.
    Red wrote: »
    Gosh folding KJs hurts here
    Austin wrote: »
    I figured this pot would be 4-5 ways so folded becAuse SPR would be around 3-4.
    If Villains like to limp-call, punish them! 3bet more (for isolation) ! Learn how to be comfortable playing 3bet pot. Learn how a 3bet merged range hits the board and how to continue either versus a 4-bet and on the flop if called.

    Folding KJs is so nitty. I think it's acceptable only if the PFR is a nit or a passive player who wakes up (=both times with a monster range which destroy KJs).
    Otherwise, and in most of situations, KJs should be a highly profitable hand, and not one to toss away after 1 bet...

    Hard to be comfortable in a 3 bet pot with KJs when any cbet will put in over half our stack. I guess I could min 3 bet to $30 and play a 3-4 SPR pot HU. Any normal size 3bet seems like i would be burning money.


    From Splitsuit's article.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.splitsuit.com/spr-poker-strategy/amp#ampshare=https://www.splitsuit.com/spr-poker-strategy

    We can use the same concept when thinking about 3betting. Say a fish with 50bb opens to 3bb and we are thinking about 3betting to 10bb with a hand. If the fish calls, and let’s be honest, fish tend to call 3bets liberally, it would be a 2 SPR pot (~20bb in the middle and 40bb effective). A 2 SPR pot doesn’t leave a lot of room for running multi-street bluffs and is pretty much at commitment, so we would want to use a hand range that would perform well in that 2 SPR pot. Hands like QQ, KK, AA, and AK come to mind…and you can certainly consider hands like TT and AQ as well.

    Reasonable 3Bet & Stack Off Range
    TT+ AQ+

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭✭
    A) fold
    B) min 3bet
    -iso + initiative + position + maybe value?
    C) 3 bet to 45-60 be done with the hand unless we connect with 8 outs or TP.
    D) call and play boated pot & hope we hit bingo. Guessing game with top pair if we face agression

    Game is 1\2\3
    Villain is random very loose 80 vpip + passive pre. Likely facing strong range.

    Im leaning towards A or B. Although C and A were my original thoughts. KJs usually serves better with a larger 3bet because it blocks their calling range. KQs way better obviously but KJs can do ok. I think flatting is a pretty bad option. Min 3 bet, large 3 bet, or fold. Calling would be ok Maybe around 150bb deep (30x) initial raise.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Hard to be comfortable in a 3 bet pot with KJs when any cbet will put in over half our stack. I guess I could min 3 bet to $30 and play a 3-4 SPR pot HU. Any normal size 3bet seems like i would be burning money.
    Austin wrote: »
    We can use the same concept when thinking about 3betting. Say a fish with 50bb opens to 3bb and we are thinking about 3betting to 10bb with a hand. If the fish calls, and let’s be honest, fish tend to call 3bets liberally, it would be a 2 SPR pot (~20bb in the middle and 40bb effective). A 2 SPR pot doesn’t leave a lot of room for running multi-street bluffs and is pretty much at commitment, so we would want to use a hand range that would perform well in that 2 SPR pot. Hands like QQ, KK, AA, and AK come to mind…and you can certainly consider hands like TT and AQ as well.

    Reasonable 3Bet & Stack Off Range
    TT+ AQ+

    But you aren't blocked to "standard" C-bet!
    You can overbet (even shoving) or underbet the flop. And underbet flop could be followed by an overbet turn depending on the Turn card.
    Make them call when you hit, make them fold when you need. A small SPR gives little room; we need to be smart to exploit it at maximum.

    That's where you've to be smarter than a fish. A considering your involvement on RCP, I'm sure you are :) Use their bad tendencies against them.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    star681 wrote: »
    show me a large pot won with kj without sucking out and ill show u a unicorn, or a novice on the other end of it

    http://www.pokerpoise.com/viewhand?808
    1/3 played at Wynn (Vegas) this summer. I presented and discussed this hand at the "Wednesday Poker Discussion Group" in Vegas too.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 661 ✭✭✭
    I can't believe that guy called your river jam @Red ...he must've pegged you for K10?? No way you'd float a Jx on the flop?
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 661 ✭✭✭
    So there was an interesting discussion by Garret Alderstein where he was talking about "most people today try to simply use range advantage to constantly pound out profit today, in which they theoretically should always have more value hands than you in a spot therefor they are more profitable" but without giving too much insight into his strategy he doesn't
    Believe that's the best way to play the game. I think this is why so many people love Tom Dwan who was a firm believer in calling with almost any hand on the button. This hand had a ton of playability and if you know your customer "aggro 80% VPIP" it sounds like a 3-bet semi-bluff with blockers but also value potential.
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