Bet/Fold AA on the Flop....How bad is it?

SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
edited September 28 in Live Poker Hands
1/3 NL [POPR]

[Hand 1]
UTG ($300) Limp $3
UTG2 ($1,030) Hero :AS: :AC: R$20
V1 ($350) HJ $20
V2 ($300) CO $20
V3 ($300) BB $20

[$83]Flop: :KC: :8S: :2H:

Hero $80
V1 $80
V2 Fold
V3 Fold

[$243]Turn: :2H:
H $100
V1 Fold

Hero gains $140

2 hands later

[Hand 2]
UTG $3
MP $3
V1 ($350) CO $3
V2 ($300) Btn $3
V3 ($300) SB $3
Hero (1,173) BB :AS: :AD: R$20
V1 C$20
V2 C$20
V3 C$20

Flop: :7H: :8H: :JS:

H $80
V1 R$200
V2 All In $300
V3 Folds
H Folds
V1 C$100

Hero lost $100, up $40 over these 2 hands

Did the Hero play these well?

Best Answers

  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    I can't believe the first hand wasn't ruled a violation. There's two :2H: 's in this deck! Ha!
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    For the second hand, your raise is on the small side, especially since you'll be out of position. This isn't a great board for your range and the runout is going to be difficult to deal with, checking the flop would have been a better option. As played, folding is a good play.

    For the first hand, the flop bet is a little large given this board texture. It's going to be very difficult to get called by worse. Of course, I say that, and somebody calls! The strange part of this hand is that V calls a pot sized bet on this flop and then folds to a less than half pot bet on the turn. What do you think he folds here?
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    I can't believe the first hand wasn't ruled a violation. There's two :2H: 's in this deck! Ha!

    LOL. Sorry, my bad. There were two 2s, one Heart and one Diamond.
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    For the second hand, your raise is on the small side, especially since you'll be out of position. This isn't a great board for your range and the runout is going to be difficult to deal with, checking the flop would have been a better option. As played, folding is a good play.
    Agreed, my default raise had been $15 when FTA and $20 with one limper. So with 5 limpers, I should have made a raise around $30 to $35 to be consistent. Good point.
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    For the first hand, the flop bet is a little large given this board texture. It's going to be very difficult to get called by worse. Of course, I say that, and somebody calls! The strange part of this hand is that V calls a pot sized bet on this flop and then folds to a less than half pot bet on the turn. What do you think he folds here?
    Again, I agree, when I was writing this up, I realized I had over sized my flop bet by 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot more than my norm. Looking back I did it out of fear. Thinking I might be beat by a set or 2 pair and a big bet will identify to problem quickly as well as push out any small to medium pairs that have not hit yet. This is an emotion that I am trying to get control of. (Monsters under the bed syndrome). A work in progress.

    Thanks
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Postflop sizings make little sense, and in hand 2 the cbet itself is questionable. You're going to have to study the meaning of bets and how they work with ranges if you want real answers here.
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    edited September 28 Accepted Answer
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    For the second hand, ... This isn't a great board for your range and the runout is going to be difficult to deal with, checking the flop would have been a better option. As played, folding is a good play.
    Agreed, the board was very wet and it hits both callers ranges better than mine as the PFRr, giving them the range advantage. So, my question here is, " Is this a ck/fold, ck/ call or a small bet and evaluate situation?".
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    For the first hand, ....The strange part of this hand is that V calls a pot sized bet on this flop and then folds to a less than half pot bet on the turn. What do you think he folds here?
    No clue, seemed strange to me too!
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Sammwigg wrote: »
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    For the second hand, ... This isn't a great board for your range and the runout is going to be difficult to deal with, checking the flop would have been a better option. As played, folding is a good play.
    Agreed, the board was very wet and it hits both callers ranges better than mine as the PFRr, giving them the range advantage. So, my question here is, " Is this a ck/fold, ck/ call or a small bet and evaluate situation?".
    You're spot on that this is a caller's board. How to proceed will mostly depend on your opponents, however betting this board is probably the least desirable action, so I would lean towards the check/evaluate line.

    Check out this hand: https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/3397/2-5-post-hand-line-discussion

    The dynamics at your table may be different than what OP describes in this hand, but it's a good hand as it demonstrates a less traveled path.
  • Justin MJustin M Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    After you get so many callers with that size in hand 1, I would probably have adjusted to a bit bigger to potentially thin the field out more. Your table has proved they're willing to see flops for 6.5bb, I'd probably try 25ish next. I've been messing with this online, and I'm going to try at my 1/3 game tonight.

    Hand 1 i think is fine.

    On hand 2... You're not just facing a raise, you're facing a raise AND an overship. Against that action i expect our aces are never good. I don't think I'd go pot on that flop, it's a pretty wet flop that's going to connect a lot with loose villains. I think I'd probably plan to bet a bit smaller, and re-evaluate on the turn. Remember most of these guys tend to be loose/passive. When they start waking up it's really time to pump the brakes and put on your thinking cap.
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Postflop sizings make little sense, and in hand 2 the cbet itself is questionable. You're going to have to study the meaning of bets and how they work with ranges if you want real answers here.
    Persuadeo, I have great respect for your opinions, I have followed many of your posts and have found them to be very informative. Here, I am a bit perplexed by the harshness of your tone and then the the selection of "Pro Advice" by Doug Hull, another person I have great respect for. Obviously there is something I am missing.

    1) "Postflop sizings make little sense" in Hand 1, I made a pot size bet into 3 opponents, in a game where, a $20 bet is commonly followed by a $125 Cbet, with one caller. I thought it came across strong for my image but not out of line for the table. Hand 2, I get it the the Cbet is questionable due to the flop texture, but your Cbet sizing comment is, lost on me. Please explain if you are willing.

    2) "You're going to have to study the meaning of bets and how they work with ranges if you want real answers here." I do want real answers, especially from someone like yourself. I have been digging into everything I can find on "reading hands" and putting players on ranges. Starting to work on Range vs range. I thought I had a good understanding on why to bet. For information, to isolate, for value, to bluff. I am actively looking for a coach to get through some of my barriers. I am also trying post once a day on this forum to learn from others like yourself, Austin, Adam, Bigburge10, Justin and all the others. If anyone has any recommendations on good sources that I can research any of these topics please give link.

    Thanks, always appreciate any constructive criticism and advice.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    The harshness is merely directness. I'll come back to this and give you a hand later.
  • Justin MJustin M Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    @Sammwigg Betting for information
    Sammwigg wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Postflop sizings make little sense, and in hand 2 the cbet itself is questionable. You're going to have to study the meaning of bets and how they work with ranges if you want real answers here.

    I do want real answers, especially from someone like yourself. I have been digging into everything I can find on "reading hands" and putting players on ranges. Starting to work on Range vs range. I thought I had a good understanding on why to bet. For information, to isolate, for value, to bluff.

    I think you're going a little too wide with the "why" you're betting. I try to keep it simple in that I bet for value, or bet to make my opponent fold. That's it. Basically isolation IS value. When they limp to you, they've shown you their hand isn't strong (barring some "tricky" opponents, who aren't really being tricky at all). In general our raising range crushes their limping range, so putting in a big raise is maximizing value. They're going to be putting in a big portion of their stack, out of position (generally), with a generally much weaker range.

    Post flop, you have to ask "what calls here", and that's how you start to construct a hand range. "What worse hands call", and "what better hands fold" are kind of a subset of this.
    In your examples above, boards 1 and 2 have very very different textures. Getting check raise/raised on board 1 after a limp/call is generally going to be more sets and 2p type hands (since both PP and Klittle suited are part of a lot of limp/call ranges). Stronger kings (which will be somewhat unlikely since you're the one that opened) are more likely to check/call, than to get agro there. You can expect to bet and get value from Ks, and probably some sticky smaller pocket pair type hands.

    Board 2 is very coordinated. Now I think you CAN bet for value (and you should), but it's a board that connects much better typically with a villain's range (I'd estimate most loose/passive limpers are playing 30-50%vpip, some more).

    So what does this range look like? Well go download equilabs (or a lot of the various other apps/programs) and fart around with putting various hands in there, and you'll start to get a better feeling for ranges. If a guy on average, is limping 3 hands per orbit, he's playing around 30-50% of his hands. I don't keep track of ACTUAL frequency at the table, but certain things emerge roughly if you're paying attention "seat 4 seems like he's in every pot" type stuff.

    So with that being said... back to hand 2...
    A loose villain is going to have a lot of PPs, connectors (both s, and o), So I think betting here is the right play (since you want to charge draws, and there's hands that are going to call a bet or 2 that are inferior)... BUT this isn't exactly the type of board you want to overcommit yourself to. If you're already behind (which is very possible) it's very very difficult (and in some cases impossible) for you to improve to the best hand. The more players in the pot, the more your equity takes a nosedive on these kinds of boards. Here you're very UNLIKELY to get 3 streets off of a JX type hand.

    When you start getting 4-5 ways it's going to be pretty tough to deny the right odds to draws, and you start to put yourself into some reverse implied odds situations.


  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    persuadeo wrote: »
    The harshness is merely directness. I'll come back to this and give you a hand later.

    Thanks
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Justin M wrote: »
    I think you're going a little too wide with the "why" you're betting. I try to keep it simple in that I bet for value, or bet to make my opponent fold. That's it.

    Ok, that keeps it simple. What about "information". Don't we all bet, evaluate and act accordingly. To me, that's betting for information. It might be in conjunction with betting for value or bluffing. Or maybe in the form of a blocker bet in an attempt to slow things down to see another street for less.
    Justin M wrote: »
    Post flop, you have to ask "what calls here", and that's how you start to construct a hand range. "What worse hands call", and "what better hands fold" are kind of a subset of this.

    Thanks, I get that.
    Justin M wrote: »
    Getting check raise/raised on board 1 after a limp/call is generally going to be more sets and 2p type hands (since both PP and Klittle suited are part of a lot of limp/call ranges). Stronger kings (which will be somewhat unlikely since you're the one that opened) are more likely to check/call, than to get agro there. You can expect to bet and get value from Ks, and probably some sticky smaller pocket pair type hands.
    Value bet, got it.
    Justin M wrote: »
    Board 2 is very coordinated. Now I think you CAN bet for value (and you should), but it's a board that connects much better typically with a villain's range (I'd estimate most loose/passive limpers are playing 30-50%vpip, some more).

    I thought this was the Cbet that was questionable?
    Justin M wrote: »
    So what does this range look like? Well go download equilabs (or a lot of the various other apps/programs)
    Yea, I need to do that. Does anyone know if any of these type of programs would work on an iPhone? I use Poker Cruncher on my iPhone now. It's limited.
    Or it this something that just needs to be done on a larger device?
    Justin M wrote: »
    So with that being said... back to hand 2...
    A loose villain is going to have a lot of PPs, connectors (both s, and o), So I think betting here is the right play (since you want to charge draws, and there's hands that are going to call a bet or 2 that are inferior)... BUT this isn't exactly the type of board you want to overcommit yourself to. If you're already behind (which is very possible) it's very very difficult (and in some cases impossible) for you to improve to the best hand. The more players in the pot, the more your equity takes a nosedive on these kinds of boards. Here you're very UNLIKELY to get 3 streets off of a JX type hand.
    So, your saying betting here is correct, just don't risk do much to get the information I need. Is that right?

    BTW, Justin, I do appreciate the thought you put into response! Well done.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Hey Sam I haven't written a strategy article in a while, so I will use your post here as the basis, and knock out two obligations at once.
  • KristosKristos Red Chipper Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    persuadeo wrote: »
    The harshness is merely directness. I'll come back to this and give you a hand later.

    I did not see any harshness in your answer and am surprised you were called out. Interesting study of the lenses we all see the world through.
    You're going to have to study the meaning of bets and how they work with ranges if you want real answers (here)

    This is indeed the Pro Advice answer to the question posed. A most profound statement that will lead believers into the deepest of rabbit holes. Hence it was largely ignored =)

  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Hey Sam I haven't written a strategy article in a while, so I will use your post here as the basis, and knock out two obligations at once.
    Cool! Let know when you do. Would like to read it.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Hey Sam I haven't written a strategy article in a while, so I will use your post here as the basis, and knock out two obligations at once.

    Now we're talking!
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30 Accepted Answer
    Sammwigg wrote: »
    Justin M wrote: »
    Board 2 is very coordinated. Now I think you CAN bet for value (and you should), but it's a board that connects much better typically with a villain's range (I'd estimate most loose/passive limpers are playing 30-50%vpip, some more).

    I thought this was the Cbet that was questionable?
    This cbet is very questionable, at least in my eyes. Are you betting for value? Yes. However, the runout is going to be brutal and you'll likely have some very difficult decisions later in the hand as many hands will have plenty of equity against you and position. Perhaps we can say: just because you CAN bet for value, doesn't mean you SHOULD? or Is this really a value bet given the equities and position?
  • Justin MJustin M Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited September 30 Accepted Answer
    Sammwigg wrote: »
    Justin M wrote: »
    I think you're going a little too wide with the "why" you're betting. I try to keep it simple in that I bet for value, or bet to make my opponent fold. That's it.

    Ok, that keeps it simple. What about "information". Don't we all bet, evaluate and act accordingly. To me, that's betting for information. It might be in conjunction with betting for value or bluffing. Or maybe in the form of a blocker bet in an attempt to slow things down to see another street for less.

    Well you do GET information from betting, but you shouldn't be betting solely for the sake of information. I think it was Harrington that came up with the concept of a "feeler bet", to "see where you're at". It's very much like a "block bet" and they're both transparent to anyone that's aware. I raise the ever living shit out of these bets, and usually end up taking down the pot right then. Most players aren't savvy enough to do that to intentionally induce (at least from what I've encountered).

    When someone calls you, you get information in the sense of being able to narrow down their range. This goes back to "what calls me here". Likewise if you get raised/check raised ask "what raises here?" Once you get better with overlaying ranges onto villains it becomes a bit easier.

    Justin M wrote: »
    Board 2 is very coordinated. Now I think you CAN bet for value (and you should), but it's a board that connects much better typically with a villain's range (I'd estimate most loose/passive limpers are playing 30-50%vpip, some more).

    I thought this was the Cbet that was questionable?

    So it's not actually your Cbet that's questionable, it's the sizing. I'm going to cbet that board too, you'll take it down sometimes, get called sometimes, and you'll also get action like you did (which makes it a pretty clear bet/fold).
    The thing is, you don't need to go full pot there. You can go 1/2-2/3 pot and accomplish the same thing (perhaps even an underbet, but that's getting closer to giving draws good pot odds). It really depends on your villain's folding tendencies here.
    Justin M wrote: »
    So what does this range look like? Well go download equilabs (or a lot of the various other apps/programs)
    Yea, I need to do that. Does anyone know if any of these type of programs would work on an iPhone? I use Poker Cruncher on my iPhone now. It's limited.
    Or it this something that just needs to be done on a larger device?

    Equilab is free on desktop IIRC. I'm an android user so not really sure if there's any free apple apps.
    Justin M wrote: »
    So with that being said... back to hand 2...
    A loose villain is going to have a lot of PPs, connectors (both s, and o), So I think betting here is the right play (since you want to charge draws, and there's hands that are going to call a bet or 2 that are inferior)... BUT this isn't exactly the type of board you want to overcommit yourself to. If you're already behind (which is very possible) it's very very difficult (and in some cases impossible) for you to improve to the best hand. The more players in the pot, the more your equity takes a nosedive on these kinds of boards. Here you're very UNLIKELY to get 3 streets off of a JX type hand.
    So, your saying betting here is correct, just don't risk do much to get the information I need. Is that right?

    Right, ultimately our goal is to get stacks in by the river when we have a big value hand. If you're sizing correctly, you should be able to do that. With our bluffs we need to be able to take down the pot 33% of the time, on a 1/2 pot size bet for it to be profitable. Realistically most rec players aren't keeping track of the pot, they just think in terms of "bet sizes". Generally I tend to always size between 1/2-2/3 on the flop. I will pot nutty type hands, when I think villain got a piece/will call... but that's not very often. Sometimes I overbet/underbet, but that's usually on later street and with a specific goal in mind.


    BTW, Justin, I do appreciate the thought you put into response! Well done. [/quote]
    No worries, we all have to start somewhere!

Answers

  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Thanks to all for the feedback. I am much more aware of board texture and ways of continuing on the flop . Hope I can maintain that going forward.

    Last night at the POPR I called $15 PF with a 78s in position.
    Called the V's Cbet heads up on the flop with my OESD with a BDFD.
    I hit my straight on the Turn and my Flush on the River. Villain had AA.
    :)
  • SammwiggSammwigg Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    edited October 4
    Well, I did it again.
    Oct 3 ,2017
    1/3 NL [POPR]

    [Hand 1]
    V1, UTG ($300) Limp $3, CALL $20
    V2, UTG+1 ($300) LIMP$3, CALL $20
    HERO, MP, ($350) :AS: :AD: Raise $20
    V3 ($500) BB Call $20

    [$81]Flop: :AH: :7D: :JD:

    V3 Ck, Fold
    V1 Ck, Fold
    V2 Ck, Call $60
    Hero Bets $60

    [$204]Turn: :JC:

    Hero $80
    V2 Fold

    The very Next Hand

    [Hand 2]
    V1, UTG Limp $3, Call $20
    Hero, UTG+1 :AC: :AS: R$20
    V2 MP $20
    V3 CO $20
    V4 SB $20

    Flop: :Qc: :9D: :8D:

    V1 Cks
    H $60
    V2 MP C$20
    V3 CO C$20
    V4 BB $200 (Competent Player)
    Hero Shoves $380
    V2 Fold
    V3 Folf
    V4 Calls for less $80 More
    V1 Folds

    Heads up all in

    Did the Hero play these well?
  • Justin MJustin M Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    @persuadeo love the blog post!

    @Sammwigg so hand 1 I think your flop bet is fine (I might go a bit smaller to try to keep people in). Once you have the turn absolutely crushed, do you give any thought to checking to induce/ letting them catch up or betting smaller?

    Now on hand 2 you have a pretty connected board. What hands do you think raise/call here?
    Do you think back raising here ever really gets called by worse?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,732 ✭✭✭✭✭