Picking up equity on turn

HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
edited April 2015 in Live Poker Hands
Two companion hands:
First a 5/10 casino cash w both hero and villain 2000 behind. Villain a stranger to table. Hero tag table image.
Hero open raises mp w :Ac:7c . Villain calls ip
Heads up to flop around 80 bucks.
Flop 378 rainbow w one club
Hero bets and villain calls
Turn 10 club.
Hero bets (point of interest for me)
Villain calls
River comes 2 club
Hero bets big
Villain calls and mucks obviously not worried about backdoor flush which came in and paid hero big.
Is this a good spot for hero to bet turn oop or should he chk call for fear of being blown off a made hand w but draw?

Second hand early in tourney: assume deep stack and equivalent stacks.
Hero in mp w k9 ds raises. Villain calls in sb.
Flop k62 rainbow w one d
Villain chks and hero bets.
Villain calls
Turn 8 d
Villain checks
And hero bets
Villain calls
5 d on river
Villain checks
Hero bets
Villain calls
Villain was slowplaying a k6 flopped two pair and let hero hit runner flush. Villain should have raised turn in a tourney imho but whatever....the question is should hero have bet turn ip once checked to w tp and second but flush vs villain who calls that flop. If villain had check raised turn it's tough for hero to call.

Two hands have similar spots but position is different.

Comments

  • Big OwlBig Owl Red Chipper Posts: 170
    This is an area I've been working on in my game. My default line of thinking previously was woohoo! more equity I can barrel. That can be good against player types you have a read on as very fit or fold or very passive so you are almost positive a raise is never coming. There are some players I play against that love to call flops, and almost always fold to a second barrel. But in this situation where you say the villain is unknown I would check call. This turn card hits his range much more than yours. As I've read from Mr. Soto in here a few times if you bet here you run the risk of becoming captive to your equity in the hand and we are gitting money in where the only way to win is to hit one of our outs. So here I would check turn.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    Hand #1- I have been using the following line a lot in this spot: C/C the flop. C/R the turn if I think I have some fold equity. Lack of fold equity on turn makes me want to C/C again.

    Be interested in other lines
  • SCP00SCP00 Red Chipper Posts: 72 ✭✭
    1st hand I would barrel the turn too. Hits his range but if he follows the passive line, then there a lots of cards on river to bluff if u dont hit the draw. If u check, he bets big and u have to fold..

    2nd hand I would check behind in the turn to stack protection.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In both hands, you don't have to cbet and continue 100% of the time. You can delayed cbet these boards as well, more hand 2 than hand 1.

    1) The runout of the flop and turn in hand one isn't super good for your range.

    2) In hand two, a weak king can be a good hand to check one street, whether you picked up equity or not.
  • ivandurstivandurst Red Chipper Posts: 124 ✭✭
    1st hand: I barrel this turn instinctively and frequently. Yes, he has range advantage on this dynamic board, but we have mad equity and still have options on river when we're called (get there obv, overbet favorable card for our range, win at showdown against a few hands (like 6c5c, 97, etc), etc). Post-hand analysis might reveal a better line, but I can't think of one... if I check anywhere, it's going to be the flop.

    Check back turn as played in 2nd hand, but pretty often I'd check flop IP and bet turn/river in 2nd hand - he's not peeling flop OOP with much that can call (and be behind) you on turn, and a c/r is a bit of a disaster here.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Ok i saw the reply's and i think i'll be giving a different opinion here so im pretty much expecting a discussion about this later on.

    I like barrelling in both situations. I'll state why:

    Hand #1:

    I don't expect my hand really to have much value by the river due to amount of cards that can come and change the equity of my hand. So if im ever betting here im expecting to turn my hand into a bluff like 80% of the time. The T makes a good card to even put pressure on 8x hands and against a decent opponent who can fold a good number of combos im always using this opportunity to triple barrel expecting a very few combos to actually be able to call this off.

    Hand #2:

    I'm hoping you had some sort of special read for opening here especially being early in the tournament since most early stages play close to like a cash game. However once making this situation you have to assume that your K9 is going to be good majority of the time to make a cbet here or you could induce calls of weaker hands majority of the time.

    In the case of this being a tournament im more incline to ride on the fact that because people tends to gamble more often and take more risk, i expect to see lighter calls than usual. So im betting for pure value. On the turn i'm in the mindset of betting and never folding because of the equity we have and because it is a tournament im willing to take more risk to get chips for the final table and be willing to make close call break even play like it was the nuts. So once you turn a pair and a draw im always betting and never folding. Especially since i expect my villian to be thinking on this level where since its a tournament they can gamble a bit more often. This would be totally different if it was a cash game but this is my opinion and if you are going to be a good tournament player i feel like as these spots presents itself you have to be really good at picking spots and this spot is a great example to take in a tournament that you wouldnt take in a cash game.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
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  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    OK I'll get to this :-)
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Hand 1:

    Easy barrel on Flop for Value/Protection. Check/Calling Flop is bad because we go into bluff catch mode and can't merge on any overs. And now we at the mercy of the run out, plus give up initiave with a medium strength hand, while playing it like a medium strength hand, which is not good.

    Turn is a Super easy C/C. A barrel accomplishes absolutely nothing. The Ten hits his range so hard that you can't expect many folds given that card. Also, getting raised is a distaster... absolute disaster lol. Many people will barrel just to barrel because they picked up equity and it blows up in their face because you can't expect a fold and you may get raised. The times he just calls now you have to get there and the times you get raised, you're kicking yourself for betting. #seethelight..

    @Rello: OR the 3rd option is to run a triple barrel on a board where your opponent has range advantage, but now since you dug yourself this deep you are praying the river comes a big card and you bomb and he now finds a fold. This is how you quickly dump a buyin. Firing bullets, then praying, then firing more bullets, then praying again. You become a victim to your equity by firing shells on boards where he smashes range, and brick your equity then try a hail mary. #ToughLove

    Hand 2:

    Flop- standard bet

    Turn - Now this spot looks like the first hand but it's completely different. This one is a bet. The range of hands he calls Flop with is going to be mostly Kx and Medium PP, and maybe some random Ax backdoor Floats. So on Turn, you are betting to get value from hands like TT. Also, you are buying yourself a showdown when you miss, because when you check back and face a bet you are going to call a lot... (bluff catching again and just getting owned a lot taking that line). But also you are building a bigger pot for when you back into it. Betting is just superior.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    Hand 1

    @Christian- Flop barrel on this board OOP looks like player over repping range. As IP player, this board probably hits me more than PFR. Between PFR over repping and times I flop solid equity I will be raising cbet quite often. Betting and calling a raise or folding to a raise here looks expensive.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    sullyooo wrote:
    Hand 1

    @Christian- Flop barrel on this board OOP looks like player over repping range. As IP player, this board probably hits me more than PFR. Between PFR over repping and times I flop solid equity I will be raising cbet quite often. Betting and calling a raise or folding to a raise here looks expensive.

    A CBET OverRepping range on 8 7 3 rainbow? I disagree.

    Hero has the same combos as you plus more. 88, 77, 87s, 9Ts, are all in Hero's range as well plus all over pairs which can 3bet your Flop raise and shut your equity share out.

    Sure, you can raise but Hero won't always fold especially when you rep so narrow given you won't always raise 88 on this board and now Hero holds a blocker to 77. Sure you can call but Hero can double barrel with correct frequency. If Hero holds an overpair and you raise Hero can 3bet and shut your equity hands out as you rep mostly equity hands and few made hands (some of which dont always raise).

    I dont think this flop is bad enough for PFR where he has to start checking so much.

    I still much like a Cbet. If you raise here and I have A7cc, I'm not folding.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    What are you doing on this board with all the hands that whiff? Cbet? Check?
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    While I agree the flop is dynamic and this favors the ip player I think a cbet is ok and a call or reraise of an ip raise is ok as well-given the inherent dynamism. Certainly not folding.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Think it's fair to say I'll bet the one with BackdoorS.
  • ivandurstivandurst Red Chipper Posts: 124 ✭✭
    I still much like a Cbet. If you raise here and I have A7cc, I'm not folding.

    @Christian, as a general concept, when we bet in a spot like this and get raised, what's our plan for the rest of the hand? This is a spot where many people (including myself) are frequently lost (when cbet gets raised, we have some equity/showdown value, and villain's line is suspicious). All of our options look pretty bad - folding is nitty, calling is setting yourself up to get barreled off later (or pay off later) oop, bluff-raising seems spewy. I'm interested to hear how you play this spot depending on different board runouts and villain actions, maybe a vid would be easier... :)

    (Hope this doesn't seem like a hijack)

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