Thought I Was Good

Russ IRuss I Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
I'm gonna start posting my loser hands. The hands where I lost the most money for the session. I'm hoping this exercise will help me evaluate my choices. I think Splitsuit's handbook has helped me, but quite frankly, since I've started in on those exercises I've crashed and burned. So this is as much forcing myself to self-study as much as anything. That said, criticism of my play is welcome.

Global Poker $0.05/$0.10 Six Max

It's something like my fourth hand, so I have no real info on the players at my table.

UTG ($15) raises to $0.40
Hero ($9.45) is in MP with :AH: :JH: calls
SB ($13) calls
BB ($7) calls

Flop: :8H: :TH: :9S:

BB bets $0.80
UTG Folds
Liking my powerful draws, I raise to $2.00
SB Folds
BB calls

Turn: :QS:

BB checks
Liking my hand even better, I bet $2.80
BB raises AI for $4.70

So Ed Miller says an aggressive action on the turn/river is not a bluff. That's always the first thing going through my mind. It's a check raise, true. But it's less than a min-raise since he's all in. Am I considering this enough of an aggressive raise here that I'm fearing something that beats my Q high straight?

My second problem, which I have in ALL poker sessions, is putting my opponents on too tight of a range. I recognize that I'm a NIT and I'm trying hard to overcome that. When the UTG raises 4x and there's three callers in front of him, is he really calling with KJ? Even in the BB? I'm not, I've been conditioned to play so TAG that I would dump that almost immediately.

Would a $0.05/10 player check raise all in on a flush draw, hoping to get lucky? My experience is that a lot them are bingo playing and this looks like a chance to get lucky and double up. Not all of them, but some percentage of them. It influences me in situations like this, and I'm not sure if it should.

No reason to hide the results since I said above I'm studying my loser hands. So.....

I call the AI bet.

River: :4D:

Villain has :KD: :JD: for the better straight.

Did I consider KJs for the opponent? I did, but I discounted it. If it were KJhh I would understand it more. But I thought I bet enough to push out gutshots.

Should I have gotten away from this?

Russ

Comments

  • AkashicAkashic Red Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    edited October 13
    Miller also says that is a type 3 board. Anybody who calls that flop has about the same equity against each other. This is a hard one to get away from once you see the flop and connect very hard with the texture. Even if behind to a stronger straight, you can still out draw.

    The key point would likely be preflop. I know you don't have info on the players as it is your 4th hand, but hands like AJ (even though suited) are likely to find pitfalls when calling early position raises. What happens when you are going to flat out of position (you might have position on the UTG, but what about those to act behind you)? What if the flop comes Axx, how far are you going with an ok ace if the preflop starts betting it? I would lean towards folding or 3-betting (leaning further towards 3-bet).

    I know a lot of people really want to raise when they are on heavy draws, but calling is also strong here. Maybe this guy would have shoved the turn when the Q hits, but then again, it will also be hard to get away from.
  • Russ IRuss I Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    So your'e saying it's a preflop fold or raise? Again, if so, then I'm too tight with my 3B, because my 3B vs UTG RFI isn't anywhere near AJs. So is it a clear fold then? Even at 6 max?

    Given the lack of 3Bing at the micros, while I might not be IP going to the flop, I'm thinking that most of the time I don't have to put more money in the pot to see the flop. I can see the argument that raising doesn't give a good price to those behind me to come in.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭✭
    this hand is a cooler
    BB is a bad player
    you should be shoving turn to put BB all in on turn
  • John KJohn K Red Chipper Posts: 61 ✭✭
    I'm a real Newbie so probably talking a load of rubbish. But from my newbie understanding you should worry about V range not just that specific hand. Surely he could of made that play with some other hands that you were ahead of. IF my Math(s) is right the pot is $13.90 and you need to bet $1.90 so you only have to be ahead 1 in 6 times to call right? So for what it's worth I reckon you played it pretty well. But I agree with Kagey It's all going in anyway so if you shove the turn maybe you pick up a tiny bit of fold equity.
  • Russ IRuss I Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    John, I agree that I'm looking at ranges, not specific hands. But when all the money goes in, I look to see what hands beat me, and consider what other hands he could have with the same action. So (minus the math) I think we are doing the same thing here.

    Kagey -
    1. I thought it was a cooler, but I wanted to study it to make sure I didn't mess it up. I think a lot of players blame "bad luck" when they get beat
    2. I certainly put him in a certain category after this hand, and towards the "bad" part of the spectrum
    3. I don't see shoving the turn. Aside from the KJ he had, I'm liking my hand enough that I want to get in two more bets (assuming the river comes out favorable). Do I really want to risk him folding to a shove? You say he's a bad player, but after three hands, am I supposed to assume he will call an AI bet with worse?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭✭
    Russ I wrote: »
    3. I don't see shoving the turn. Aside from the KJ he had, I'm liking my hand enough that I want to get in two more bets (assuming the river comes out favorable). Do I really want to risk him folding to a shove? You say he's a bad player, but after three hands, am I supposed to assume he will call an AI bet with worse?

    look at it this way:
    pot on the flop is 1.20
    you raise a flop bet to $2 and get called.
    so pot should be 5.20
    the turn brings your str8 - but it also brings another flush draw
    say you bet 2.80 and V calls
    what if the board pairs? what if another spade comes? what if a J comes?
    are you ever folding?
    pot will be over $10
    will you fold to a river bet of 1.90 if V now shoves a bad river for you?

    don't allow your V to play perfect.
    force him to make a decision.
    put HIM to the test.

    look ahead.
    there are a lot of bad rivers for you.
    and also some bad rivers for your V.
    if a heart comes, he might get away from his str8 and muck a J.
    then you would regret leaving money on the table.

    V has a pot-sized bet left on the turn.
    make him put it all in.
    otherwise, why bother raising the flop?

    I'm not asking you to assume anything.
    I'm asking you to play your game.
    You got the turn you want.
    Now, go make these players your bitch.
    His range includes a lot of sets, 2-pair, Js, flush draws, str8 draws... etc.
    Make him feel the pressure...

    Look at how Dwan pushes people around...
    with AND without the nuts.
    if you're never going all in on this turn
    then when?
    and if you're never going all in on this turn,
    then are you only doing it with a bluff?

    sure, you won't get call ALL the time
    so what?
    the times you do get called will more than make up for the times they fold.
    and the times they fold when you're semi-bluffing
    will more than make up for the times they call.

    as far as player type:
    this dude is terrible...
    any player who will call a flop raise for ⅓ his stack with KJdd on a heart flushing board - is just downright stupid. He's basically calling for a 3-outer (or 6 if he somehow thinks a 7 will help him) - and even if he catches "perfect" he's still got to dodge hearts.
    For all he knows, you've already got QJ and you're freerolling.

    you seemed to have done fine til the turn.
    don't be one of those guys who then suddenly makes nitty min-raises or baby bets to entice players to come from behind and beat you.
    this is YOUR table.
    these are YOUR cards.
    BET YOUR HAND
    bet it strong.
    put the tough decisions on them.
    as played, you got coolered by some dude hoping to strike gold.
    well, lah-dee-dah for him.
    we don't care about that.
    we want YOU to make good decisions.
    we want YOU to play strong.

    if you shoved, the results would have been the same.
    that's not the point.
    the point is I would have preferred you being more aggressive and not letting V have the last bet.
    Now go out there and kick some a$$!

    and start posting some winning hands!!
    :)
  • John KJohn K Red Chipper Posts: 61 ✭✭
    Looks life is reflecting poker here. @kagey is obvious a good player (maybe a LAG) but I reckon you got good hand here @Russ I . Call him
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 836 ✭✭✭
    edited October 14
    @John K : @Kagey is not a lag. Read his name, he is tag - the King of Tags :D
  • John KJohn K Red Chipper Posts: 61 ✭✭
    oh yes. I need improve on reading opponents. Seriously though. It's great getting thoughts from guys like yourself. It's really helping my game.
  • Russ IRuss I Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Thanks @kagey for the insight. I see what you're saying.

    I'll post some winning hands. After this last session I went back to studying :-)
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB Red Chipper Posts: 66 ✭✭
    BB is almost 5:1 when you raise $2. He's only got ~$6 behind so he's looking at 3x. What could he possibly call that with? He is either ahead or doesn't get pot odds. I'm sure I would have done the same. Then I'd stick around since I know he's gonna bleed that money back.

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