KJo in SB - Any Value Here

ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭✭
edited May 2015 in Live Poker Hands
Typical 1-2 mid-week east coast game.

Hero SB with :Kh:Js

MP limps $2
LP limps $2
Hero SB Completes to $2
BB Raises to $15

MP Calls Raise
LP Calls Raise

Hero ??

A few notes on the hand...

I usually complete a very tight range in the SB in these types of games. Especially when I feel the pot is going to be multi-way and I am going to be out of position post flop. I also raise an even tighter range unless I have a very strong reason to believe I can take it down pre or at worst get heads up.

So my completion in this spot with :Kh:Js is pretty standard for me.

The BB raise was the first time I had seen him raise PF in about 4-5 orbits. He been been an average passive player especially PF. My impression was that he had what he believed to be a strong hand and this was not simply an attempt to take down the limped money.

I folded.

Question: Is this a spot where some of the 'better' players can play this hand profitably?
I just don't see how I win money long term in this spot if I call/raise PF ??

**I understand that the pot is now $47 and it costs me only $13 to call and I complete the action PF.

I would like to hear some thoughts on if/how this hand could be played profitably in this spot? What would the conditions need to be in your mind to make this PF call/raise +EV if it all??

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,069 -
    I'll start earlier in the hand:

    If you raise the two limpers to say, $18, what do you think they do? What about $21? Are these good or bad outcomes for you given your cards, position, expected reactions from them, and your skill edge?
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  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    I think my opinion is going to based on the fact that i play more online but this is my opinion:

    First of all when i think about the limpers i think they are limping hands weaker in than KJ in general i mean i expect AJ/KQ/AK to be raising. I could be wrong but even so, i expect a wider range to limp-call. So what i would recommend here is to actually raise but raise really big. I figure in a live game you are prone to get callers regardless right? Well, in an online game instead of raising 3x + 1x for every limper, i usually raise 4x + 1x for every limper when im in the blinds. The theory is if you are going to call me you have to pay the price to be out of position with a worse hand. I think live the standard is 5x + 1x for every limper, so instead make it like 6x + 1x for every limper and if they willing to call make it bigger and bigger until you find that threshold and play poker.

    If villians are the type to call anything Pre and anything post then just fold it and have a premium range that you willing to stack off with if it comes down to it.

    I think too many players use pot odds to complete there just to play fit or fold postflop with a wide range of hands and burn money. Unless you have a big passive station always limping in then its fine because you get paid off when you hit a big hand but most of the time your just burning money IMO.
    -Rello

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  • ihbeiserihbeiser Red Chipper Posts: 26
    Out of position against a tight pre-flop raiser, with a hand that is easily dominated. I can't see how it is +ev to call here. I don't think the fact that you are closing the action and getting about 3.6:1 makes much difference.

    With regard to raising, I don't think raising gets any better hands to fold and if he calls, you are still out of position in a bloated pot with an easily dominated hand.

    Maybe a light 3 bet would be OK against a player who was stealing a lot pre-flop and had shown the ability to bet/fold but not against this player who you had only seen raise once in 5 orbits. Then of course there are also the other unknown limpers who can't be completely forgotten.

    I think this is an easy fold here.
  • starling81starling81 Red Chipper Posts: 88
    There is nothing wrong with completing SB with that hand i think. Even OOP vs weaker players you can find value in playing that hand. You getting a sick price to see the flop if BB checks behind. On Christian's advice i started completing SB with more hands than before (especially live games), sometimes that $1 completion turns into sick value post-flop.

    I think that question of calling BB raise pre-flop depends on their frequencies, and you said that he hasn't raised PF for multiple orbits, so his range will probably be really strong. Other things i would take into consideration is how good the player is, will you be able to outplay him postflop on favorable boards? Is a weaker nit that will never fold top of his range no matter what you do, because he is blind to the board textures/runouts and only sees his hand inside a vacuum? Considering it's a $1/$2 table, second part becomes a bit thin, and just being behind his range is enough reason to not get into it OOP vs a nit who raises for first time in multiple orbits with 3 limpers in the hand.

    I think you did what is best in that spot - just fold and avoid difficult spots. Also since you didn't mention stack sizes, i assume people in the hand have standard ~100BB stacks. Of course if you would be 400BB deep between you and the villain,(and more so if all ppl in the hand are that deep) argument could be made of getting into post-flop play with that hand, but then post-flop skills become paramount. I personally don't have any, so i fold either way :)
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Only thing that matters here is how deep you are. And that's the only thing you didn't mention. The most important thing.

    Not sure why everyone is so quick to want to fold? We're Getting 3.6 to 1 and that still matters! If he has QQ we are making a mistake by folding. Just saying...

    You call, flop decent equity or a pair and lead on him. He is in a massive cage with 2 people behind. He cant just act up and bluff, and now you force him to have it. And if he does, okay he wins. But just saying it's an easy fold preflop is not believing in your own ablities to handle marginal spots post...

    Chipx: stop being a little nit and throw the chips in. And you all that said fold and padded him on the back need to remove that inner nit too.
    #ToughLove
  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭✭
    Yeah Chrisitan it is the same old story.... Not believing in my ability to play well in this spot post flop. It is a confidence and experience thing for sure.

    The thing is that by avoiding these spots in the past for so long I have become *very* uncomfortable ever being in this type of position. Of course it is a double edged sword, because I never get to grow thru playing these spots...so...lose-lose.

    I am at the point now where I can pretty consistently identify spots where the 'better' players extract value that the lesser players do not. I just have to get better at actually taking these opportunities.

    Thanks as always Chin.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    Only thing that matters here is how deep you are. And that's the only thing you didn't mention. The most important thing.

    Not sure why everyone is so quick to want to fold? We're Getting 3.6 to 1 and that still matters! If he has QQ we are making a mistake by folding. Just saying...

    You call, flop decent equity or a pair and lead on him. He is in a massive cage with 2 people behind. He cant just act up and bluff, and now you force him to have it. And if he does, okay he wins. But just saying it's an easy fold preflop is not believing in your own ablities to handle marginal spots post...

    Chipx: stop being a little nit and throw the chips in. And you all that said fold and padded him on the back need to remove that inner nit too.
    #ToughLove

    Well I find this interesting...My inner nit has me fold this.

    So I decided to consult my inner mathematician.

    if I call 13 the pot will be 55 after rake....and that means 13/55 * 100 = 27%...

    so I need to have equity of 27%...

    Well preflop given the raiser...TT+ AJs+ KQs AQ+
    give the callers...a 25% range minus the hands they raise AJo+ Ats+ 99+ KQS and KJs....(all other pairs...suited Aces some suited kings suited connectors...the other broadways t9o,98o....you know the usual .

    Your equity is about 21%...s so far my inner mathematician is suggesting folding..

    We are oop in a bloated pot with less equity then are bet calls for and think we can make up the difference by out playing with these disadvantages...

    oh and if stacks are 200 ish are SPR is a bit more then 3 and if stacks ares 300 its a bit less then 5...I generally try to avoid mutli way pots with KJo with spr between 2 and 5....and thats when I think KJo is better then the ranges.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    I dont think you should calculate rake before you even put the dollars in the pot, it changes the equity calc a little. And yeah know one said it was fist pump spot and I did ask for stack sizes.

    Either way, not folding is not the worst thing. And Folding is always an option. In fact folding is an option all the time. But what separates average from great is the marginal spots and can you make dollars there in the trenches.

    Just keep that in mind.
  • starling81starling81 Red Chipper Posts: 88
    Not sure why everyone is so quick to want to fold? We're Getting 3.6 to 1 and that still matters! If he has QQ we are making a mistake by folding. Just saying...

    Christian, i know it's pointless to argue with you cause you just know better, so it would be the stupidest thing of me to do that. But i think the folding in that spot (if we take assumed 100BB standard stack depth) is just to avoid marginal situations. Not everybody is as good as you navigating those spots, you make way less mistakes post-flop. Yeah, price to see the flop is excellent, if hero is confident he will not make mistakes and end up boxed in at some point - why not. We all know YOU NEVER FOLD there :) :P
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    starling81 wrote:
    Not sure why everyone is so quick to want to fold? We're Getting 3.6 to 1 and that still matters! If he has QQ we are making a mistake by folding. Just saying...

    Christian, i know it's pointless to argue with you cause you just know better, so it would be the stupidest thing of me to do that. But i think the folding in that spot (if we take assumed 100BB standard stack depth) is just to avoid marginal situations. Not everybody is as good as you navigating those spots, you make way less mistakes post-flop. Yeah, price to see the flop is excellent, if hero is confident he will not make mistakes and end up boxed in at some point - why not. We all know YOU NEVER FOLD there :) :P

    I mean I'm not perfect. But I think you also only get better post by placing yourself in the situation. Can't get better by always avoiding the spot.

    At 100BB I guess you can fold. But then do you also fold KQ? And if you don't, then I'll just say the equities between the two hands are very similar.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    I dont think you should calculate rake before you even put the dollars in the pot, it changes the equity calc a little. And yeah know one said it was fist pump spot and I did ask for stack sizes.

    If I'm trying to find out if a line is +EV...why would I not calculate the rake. I'm not trying to look for lines that have +EV if there were no rake.

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