Poker Fighter! New Poker Training Software

Shawn JShawn J Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
edited November 2017 in Off Topic Chat
www.poker-fighter.com

I came across this new site while browsing the web and thought it would be worthwhile for those new to poker and even us experienced players to check out. It would be cool to hear some of the pros thoughts also. I played the preflop section and thought it was pretty clean looking.

Comments

  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭✭
    I played around with it for a few minutes. It's pretty easy to use and does seem to offer some decent training for a beginning player (maybe it has more advanced stuff as well, but I didn't play around much yet). I do like the interactive quiz aspect of it.
  • Nathan SNathan S Red Chipper Posts: 275 ✭✭
    The hole card game is really...something. Some of the "playable" hands are easy folds depending on position. Thanks for sharing though, going to continue going through it.
  • Shawn JShawn J Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
    https://www.888poker.com/magazine/poker-world/new-technology-creates-poker-training-software/

    I'm a $30 an hour winner at 2-5 NLH over 1000 hours at my area raked home games. These games are EXTREMELY SOFT! I'm a recent pro member here. I've read articles, books, watched videos, all passively, not taking notes and not doing any hands on off table study. I'm ashamed to say I haven't dived into SplitSuit hand reading workbook yet. I'm always looking for something interactive. Something I can use to improve my skills at this amazing game. Yes, there's the Advanced Poker Training simulator. I worked on that in the past, many years ago, but I didn't utilize all of its capabilities, which are many. And there's Poker Snowie. I haven't tried it yet. Both those training Simulators are more costly than this one. Thing is, I work 40 hours a week. I have lots of downtime at my job. I can use my cell phone and company computer, but I'm limited on what sites I can go on the computer but not my phone. I go to the gym 4 days a week after work for an hour. I play live poker for 15 hours a week. I have a daughter and a GF that needs my attention with all my other available hours. Bottom line, I could but don't, make time for any off table study. I would have to do it at work, without Flopzilla, but with the Poker Cruncher app.

    I recently found this trainer and I am LOVING it. I paid for the monthly subscription. It's very interactive and user friendly and is greatly improving my fundamentals of poker. I can play it on my phone whenever and go over a wide variety of scenarios for preflop, flop, turn and river. I'm only 3 days into using this trainer, so it's to soon to say if it had improved my win rate, but I have faith it will. I'm seeing plays more clearly now. A tighter range to bet preflop, what boards to bet on the flop, turn and river, and how to be more aggressive with my draws and how to get max value with my made hands!! There's not many reviews online for this simulator for some reason. I would LOVE to hear a solid review of some of the PROS from here.
    I'm calling you out...
    @SplitSuit
    @Doug Hull
    @Ed Miller
    @persuadeo

    I want to know if this simulator is worth our while. What it's strengths and weaknesses? Any thoughts about this simulator would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time. And thanks pros for all your hard work and great content you create for this site! I REALLY am enjoying myself here and happy to be a part of the Red Chip family!
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭
    Interesting and fun drilling tool. I really like it. However, I don't know about it's strategy. It wants you to basically stack off on the turn with a nut flush draw. That draw is 3:1? But they aren't paying 3 so I don't see how that's right. And this is stated for $1$2 so we don't expect massive raises unless we are behind. I know I make a lot from people trying to draw out on me.

    Still I think it will help me with theory moreso than straight betting patterns. I'll probably do it a few months. Again, with the right coaches and ranges this would be killer self study. Perhaps they could license the engine to RCP...
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Shawn JShawn J Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
    @dnoyeB yes, this simulation teaches a very aggressive approach. I've already have exchanged emails with the developer. They've been very accommodating with my suggestions and feedback. This trainer is still in its infancy, about a year old, with about 40 users online at any given moment. I've mentioned about the flop and turn aggressive actions and how unlikely a weak passive 1/2 player is RR without the nuts. I've done some of the math with its pre fabricated betting, and if all the money is in on the flop, were getting direct pot odds, about 33%, to hit our big draw by the river. The developer said they'll be updates in the next year that will give us more player dependent options. Anyhow, yes, I really enjoy the drilling format. It's really helped me. Advanced Poker Trainer has many more options, but for $60 for 6 months of use, I find this has very good value and great ROI. And I definitely recommend it for beginners
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, I've gone through two free simulations now and will give it a thumbs down for poker knowledge imparted, thumbs up for ease of use.

    I'd say this is good for a newb but actually gives the kind of advice I am paid to correct.
  • Shawn JShawn J Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
    @persuadeo we appreciate your honesty assessment and feedback.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2017
    I've just had a look on it and agree with @persuadeo (although I don't have his poker wisdom).

    As thinking player, I don't like how automatic this training site try to teach. Showing tricks and tactics without developing the whole. Mostly, I think:
    - It didn't go deep enough into Villain's profile. I ain't gonna play the same against a tight passive or an aggro player. For that PokerSnowie or PokerTraining are doing it better.
    - Their explanations is somehow weak. Here is an example:
    Hero is BU, against Villain SB who only called until now. We are playing the river. Check or bet?
    Hand: :TH: :AH:
    Board: :3C: :8H: :KH: -- :QC: -- :3S:

    "Coach advise: bet (only 1 option at ~60% of the pot)
    You're in position and this flop was originally wet.
    You do not have a made hand

    On the turn, you had a strong drawing hand.

    You should BET.
    Explanation:
    To have a good frequency of bluffs, you should always bluff strong draws that missed."
    In this example, the coach advise doesn't discuss what we are rep for value. Which mostly on flop would be TP and sets (and ev. K8s on a stealing range). Their strength don't change (much) after Qc and 3s, so we still could bet for value. In other hands, coach advises us to still bet, but TP got counterfeited or their was little value hands on flop.
    Also, there is no discussion about targeted range. I.e. about Villain's holding. In this hand, we could make MP (TT-JJ, 8X) folds by trip barreling, but what about a weak KX? Also Ah, Kh, Th and 8h are out. So if Villain was calling OOP with a draw (FD), which ones? If it's QhXh, is he able to fold?
    This should be taken in consideration for a bluff. After calling the turn, does Villain have enough combos he will fold for us to bluff +EV ?

    In another example, defending C-bet v. C-R, the website proposes to 3-bet almost any value hands (down to TP) and then call a 4-bet shove (from 10$ flop bet to 200$ eff shove). No discussing or presenting at any moment the effect of betting/raising/3-betting/4-betting shove on ranges, what it implies for how Villain will react depending on his profile or the overall strategy (flatting to fight on turn). Let alone how to balance our ranges. (If a 1/2$ player C-R flop and 4-bet shove, I ain't calling without the nuts)

    Furthermore, bet sizings are set (can't be changed). Maybe not a point for beginner, but different sizing have different effects.

    ***
    BOTTOM LINE
    I've not seen everything, and many things are blocked in the free version. Nonetheless I agree with @persuadeo .
    I can't say if this training site teaches mistakes (I'm no poker Master), but I really feel the people using it will then play automatically, at best using trick who works at 1/2$, instead of thinking about the game (range, dynamic, blockers, balance, sizing, position, texture) and developing an overall +EV strategy.

    I feel it's like learning guitar through online tabs instead of studying solfège : good to handle more and less well cheesy easy songs, bad to learn and improve to a good musician.
  • Shawn JShawn J Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
    @Red thanks for your thorough assessment. I couldn't have described it any better. I certainly don't wanna get any bad habits. I felt it does a good job teaching what boards to barrel on and how to play or draws and made hands aggressively, to get max value, or get better to fold. I agree, the aggression is all player dependent and many more dynamics to consider. I believe all these issues will be addressed in future updates. Right now, the suggested plays are considered within a vacuum, and against weak passive unknown opponents. We shall see. I think it has potential, with the proper fine tuning and more specifics.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭
    For me I'm not looking at the ranges so much. I think those are a bit off. But it is helping me to recognize that one situation is different from another. Like out of position almost always you raise or fold.but in position there will be more calling. Weaker hands out of position they always want to resolve preflop by raising. And check a made hand on a dry board but raise a draw while check a draw on a wet board but raise a made hand.

    Seeing how they think has been helpful to me but I do often find myself making a play to "pass" while noting it would be bad where I play.
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    There’s a reason SplitSuit’s workbooks don’t give answers.
    :Jd :Tc
  • Guy SelaGuy Sela Red Chipper Posts: 1 ✭✭
    Hi guys,

    I'm Guy Sela the CTO of Poker-Fighter.
    I came across this interesting discussion, and I will try to reply to all your comments:)
    First of all I wanted to let you know that we already have an Android app of Poker Fighter in the Play Store. I can't post a link here, because I'm new to the forum but you can look it up:)

    So, Poker-Fighter's brain is designed to beat 6-max online microstakes and live $1-$2, which is about the same level IMO.
    Our target audience is newbies and recreational players, as we find this field as pretty neglected in poker training materials. This is why we try to avoid using advanced poker terms as: "thin value", "light 3-bets", "Merging ranges", formulas to calculate pot odds etc.

    Also, all the levels that are currently available in the game are played in a Vacuum, so you assume the tendencies of the average micro-stakes opponent which is Loose and Passive. If you bet and get re-raised, you assume he probably has TPTK or better, etc.
    We will add levels of adjustments to player types later on.

    Regarding your comments:
    Nathan S wrote: »
    The hole card game is really...something. Some of the "playable" hands are easy folds depending on position.
    "Playable" in the hole cards level just means that this hand is not total GARBAGE and MIGHT be playable in a certain scenario.

    dnoyeB wrote: »
    It wants you to basically stack off on the turn with a nut flush draw. That draw is 3:1?
    I believe we took care of the bet sizing there so against a microstakes range and adding some fold equity, it would add up :)


    persuadeo wrote: »
    I'd say this is good for a newb but actually gives the kind of advice I am paid to correct.

    So, as I said in the intro, our advice is really targeting microstakes tendencies, with players that don't adjust well to your high CBet% etc. I'm not sure what kind of things you are specifically talking about, but the strategy we teach is really optimized for micros, and of course that as soon as you go to higher stakes, you need to change it.
    Red wrote: »
    I've just had a look on it and agree with @persuadeo (although I don't have his poker wisdom).
    As thinking player, I don't like how automatic this training site try to teach. Showing tricks and tactics without developing the whole. Mostly, I think:
    - It didn't go deep enough into Villain's profile. I ain't gonna play the same against a tight passive or an aggro player
    ...
    Also, there is no discussion about targeted range. I.e. about Villain's holding...
    So as I said before, we are targeting Vacuum microstakes, probably this fact should be better communicated to the users:)
    About the second part - in the earlier versions, we did talk about all those things that you mention. Our target audience didn't like it:) We are trying to keep things simple, and yeah, for someone who really wants to be an advanced player, this simulator is too simplistic. I do think that most of the poker players in the world, can't or don't want to grasp all these small and important subtleties that you are talking about. We are targeting those people, because all the other trainers are targeting you guys:)
    Shawn J wrote: »
    ... I felt it does a good job teaching what boards to barrel on and how to play or draws and made hands aggressively, to get max value, or get better to fold. I agree, the aggression is all player dependent and many more dynamics to consider.
    Microstakes vacuum - Players play fit or fold, so you should be aggressive with your strong draws. Also, if they have something, they don't like folding, so you should maximize you value when your strong, and elect not to slowplay, definitely not on wet boards.
    dnoyeB wrote: »
    For me I'm not looking at the ranges so much. I think those are a bit off.

    We recently updated the preflop ranges to fit the current game style which is more aggressive than let's say 4 years ago.

    We also added another important feature - We used to have only "RIGHT" or "WRONG" feedback. Now we also have "MARGINAL", which means it's not a complete mistake, but it's not the optimal move. Most of the time, in the explanations, we will explain when your MARGINAL move might be optimal (Against which player type, etc.).

    Another important update was to add more spots where you could do a number of actions. There are many borderline spots that we allow Call or Fold, Call or Raise, etc. When we do that, we give the reasoning behind each of the actions. Since we recruited 2 more poker pros to our professionals team, we did a really profound work to the AI of Poker-Fighter.

    So that's it, I'm here if you have any more questions:)
    We are really open to hear your feedback and ideas.
    You can mail me at: [email protected]

    We are all poker players in the Poker Fighter team, and the reason behind developing Poker Fighter is to actually create a cool and fun product for newbies to get better in poker. Most of the newbies don't want to read a poker book or watch an instructional video, they want to PLAY! This is what Poker Fighter gives them, the ability to play and improve simultaneously.

    Good day guys!





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