Right bet size with flopped nuts?

C-LebC-Leb Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
Hey everyone...

Earlier this week I played some 2/5 and not sure if I did something wrong or played things right and just had no takers. I've had nearly this exact situation happen before with the same result, so I'm thinking it's my sizing or maybe I'm giving something away.

3 Limpers to Hero on Btn with 97 of clubs. Hero limps as well. SB Completes and BB Checks his option.

Flop is 5c 6s 8s. UTG bets $15 into $30 and gets 3 callers. Hero raises to $75. Everyone folds.

I don't think I was giving off any obvious physical tells, but then again it's only a tell if I don't know about it. I do know I deliberated for a while before deciding on what I was going to raise to. I fell like the raise to $75 is a good size considering there is now $90 in the middle by the time the action is to me.

I didn't write down everyone's stack sizes, but they would have varied from $300 to $700. I was probably sitting on around $400 at this point.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • Zero CoolZero Cool Red Chipper Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    You just raised 4 players on a draw heavy board what you're giving away is extreme strength. Ask yourself what hands on this board would you raise 4 players with. Probably 2 pair, sets, and straights, right? Once you raise the only hands you're likely to get called by are flush draws, straights, and sets and the only V that can have a straight or a set is UTG because the other players would have likely raised with those hands and its difficult for UTG to call with a lot of hands because he already had 3 callers behind him.

    So, how should you adjust your game? If you said "just call and slow play" slap yourself across the face (or get a friend to do it). What you should do is add hands to your raising range. Hands like flush draws, 87, 76, 75, ect. These hands have good equity when called but as you have seen your raise puts a lot of pressure on your opponents and they're not able to call with many hands.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 800 ✭✭✭
    edited November 11
    You've to dig into the concept of "targeted range" imho.

    You've to ask yourself "(from the range V has,) what hands is V continuing with?" Aka what hands you want them to call you. Based on this, you can taylor your sizing. Smaller the bet sizing, the wider V should continue.

    In your hand, what do you think V holding A8, 54, K6 will still call 60 more ? What about V holding AsJs, 65, 77 or 55?

    75 seems right - you get value and give villains a fair price to call (60/225 or 27% pot odds) w/ some good second best. You're are but going to find many fold from their junky hands they limp pre and want to float on the flop - but that's totally fine.

    N.B.: Watch out but on balance too: if you raise with nutted hands (straight, top set, etc), you also should raise with bluffs (with like OESD, gutshot or (nut) FD) - with the same sizing ofc.
    Since we want to find fold and great hands like sets or 2P aren't expected to fold, we could size even a little bit bigger imho.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 773 ✭✭✭
    In addition to the suggestions above of expanding your raise range, I'll offer a different one: raise pre-flop.

    If you simply limp-call pre-flop then raise the flop, there is almost no chance that you're doing it with anything besides a monster hand. After all, isn't the whole point of limp-calling pre-flop to hit a monster and then get paid??

    Had you raised pre-flop, however, then you could be raising with an overpair, with a draw, or simply because V donked into you.
  • Faustovaldez123Faustovaldez123 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 596 ✭✭✭
    you could start by observing how you enter pre flop on a constant basis @C-Leb

    if your gonna enter pre flop through a limp that's gonna give a certain perception off, along with XR post on this board texture

    it just looks like you're a passive player that hit a very strong hand
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • C-LebC-Leb Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    Hey everyone... Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I think raising pre gives me a better chance to disguise my hand for sure. However, once I get in that situation, is that the right size? I figured I was up against a pair + straight draw or flush draws and wanted to be sure I didn't give them the right price, but also didn't want to force them to fold.
  • Faustovaldez123Faustovaldez123 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 596 ✭✭✭
    In MW situations you should look into protecting and buying up as much equity as you can since it's shared right now with other opponents. so you can't have it both ways, you have to force some ppl out and for those who stay, try to make a line that would get the rest in assuming the next card isn't the worst card in the deck.
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • Octavian IOctavian I Red Chipper Posts: 39 ✭✭
    edited November 17
    Why limp in position along with the droolers?
    When you limp you hope to make a hand on the flop. You look for salvation when the flop comes down. That's the first mistake.

    Now, The second mistake, - Why raise so much to shut down the pot and end the whole action when you have the nuts.

    Your hand value is only relevant at the showdown and to get there while getting paid by villains you need to embrace the turn and river cards. I'm not saying to check but don't bet so much as to blow away opponents. Bet to charge them some price that put them a little bellow the +EV line with a draw but not too much the end the pot on the flop when you have the nuts. Any draw against a made hand is behind. Use street value and execute it. Make sure you get called and paid along the way to the river.
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 280 ✭✭
    We should also entertain the possibility that your bet size was fine - but nobody had the big draw that could call you.
  • CubanBCubanB Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    I agree with @Red that we should about thinking about what our opponents could possibly hold here and sizing our raise based upon that. And I don’t think $75 is a bad size at all. But I stand before you today as another advocate for a raise preflop in position here.

    Not only is preflop aggression going to allow us to get paid off on this board more often when it does go multiway and we hit a monster like this, as @moishetreats pointed out, but our PF raises are usually going to thin the field to 1 or 2 callers which will allow us to profitably c-bet in position on a variety of boards. And a significant portion of the time, we will end up taking down the pot outright - and if we can grab 4.5BB/$22 uncontested with 97 every time we have it, we would be thrilled.
  • Yanming ZYanming Z Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    Why limp in position along with the droolers?
    When you limp you hope to make a hand on the flop. You look for salvation when the flop comes down. That's the first mistake.

    Now, The second mistake, - Why raise so much to shut down the pot and end the whole action when you have the nuts.

    Your hand value is only relevant at the showdown and to get there while getting paid by villains you need to embrace the turn and river cards. I'm not saying to check but don't bet so much as to blow away opponents. Bet to charge them some price that put them a little bellow the +EV line with a draw but not too much the end the pot on the flop when you have the nuts. Any draw against a made hand is behind. Use street value and execute it. Make sure you get called and paid along the way to the river.
    Octavian I wrote: »
    Why limp in position along with the droolers?
    When you limp you hope to make a hand on the flop. You look for salvation when the flop comes down. That's the first mistake.

    Now, The second mistake, - Why raise so much to shut down the pot and end the whole action when you have the nuts.

    Your hand value is only relevant at the showdown and to get there while getting paid by villains you need to embrace the turn and river cards. I'm not saying to check but don't bet so much as to blow away opponents. Bet to charge them some price that put them a little bellow the +EV line with a draw but not too much the end the pot on the flop when you have the nuts. Any draw against a made hand is behind. Use street value and execute it. Make sure you get called and paid along the way to the river.

    I disagree with this.

    The preflop action isn't really a "mistake", because there are merits in both raising and limping behind, just make sure you are doing it for the right reasons. Raising here is a semi bluff, so your main goal is to pick up the pot uncontested. So for raising to be profitable, you have to decide that your opponents are limp folding enough of the time for all of them to fold, or to get heads up with someone who are folding to c bets way too often. If not, I believe limping is superior, because you will be in position with a speculative hand in a deep SPR pot.

    On the flop, given the action, raising is absolutely superior than slow playing. The raise sizing is fine, you are betting 75 into 90, and people who are drawing are calling 60 to win 165+implied.

    For slow playing to be correct, especially in multiway pots, you need:

    1. blocking your value targets, such as top set or top 2 on a non connected rainbow flop.
    2. You flopped a hand that can't be out drawn on, full house, Ace high straight etc.
    3. No action killing card on future streets, such as non suited and non connected flop.

    In this hand, none of the 3 conditions are satisfied.

    If you raise now, what hands might be calling? Your value targets are: over pairs 99-TT (I assume JJ+ will raise), 2p, sets, flush draws, and some 8x hands.

    If you don't raise now, and plan to put in a sizable bet on the turn, what cards are you hoping for? Any J-A falls, 8x, 99, TT are no longer calling, any 4, 7, 9 puts a 4 to a straight on the board, then you are losing almost all of your targets. If a club falls, you also lose majority of your targets, and some of your targets actually beat you now. If a brick hits, you'll lose all your flush draw targets.

    Just because nobody called your flop raise, doesn't mean you did any thing wrong. If they are not calling a bet now, it probably means they don't have much and will not call a bet later. But if you slow play and just call, you are putting you self into a situation called "negative freeroll", where on most runouts, your bets will fold out all worse hands and get called only by better hands. In other words, you are guaranteeing yourself a loss at showdown.