3bet Preflop - Range Construction example using 70% frequency

jveasyjveasy Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
Hi. Does anyone know if there is a sample somewhere of what constructing a range using the 70% frequencies looks like when hero 3bets preflop? I was trying to do an analysis of a hand where I 3 bet Pre Flop. My preflop 3betting range had 145 combos in it . On a flop of :8s :7d :5d I was looking for 66 Value hands but I ended up having to pick up a lot of weak pairs and draws to complete my value range. Is this ok? Or does it mean my pf 3betting range is messed up? But mostly I just want to make sure if I am doing the analysis correctly for a 3bet pot. I'm thinking it's the same as if the I had open raised only difference being that my starting range will contain less combos when I 3bet vs when I Open raise right?

Comments

  • colldavcolldav Red Chipper Posts: 681 ✭✭✭
    It will depend on a lot of factors like stack size, position and opponent type, but this is generally not a good flop for a 3-betting range. It is often what Ed Miller would call a "bad event", justifying a lower c-bet frequency.

    The other consideration is that the 3-bet reduces the SPR, so you will need a lower bluff:value ratio than you would in an unraised pot.
  • jveasyjveasy Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    Thanks for the reply! Makes sense. I am just about to start reading the "events" section of the book now.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭✭
    Many players talk about using polarized ranges in 3 bet pots. As mentioned above
    Stack sizes
    Position
    Fold frequency
    All important factors.

    Idk the number of combos per say but let's look at some polarized ranges.

    AA, KK, AKs, AQs, 54s-76s, 22-66, 42s-86s,

    This would be a more polarized range which does great on low and high boards but kinda sucks on middle board. To get more board coversge I would go 42s-Q10s, Axs, K10s, etc. You want to call with SCs and 3 bet the 1 gappers. Keeps your calling range strong as well cause you have 77-QQ, AKo, AJs, 76s-KQs in it.

    Good post keep up the studies.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭✭
    I've seen players 3 bet as high as 20% over a large sample size.

    Which is basically:
    22+ A10+, A2s+ KJ+ ATBs, 75s+, 76s+
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    I might be a little rusty on this, but I think you're making a mistake. I'm sure you guys will help me out if I'm wrong.

    So, you start with 145 combos and you're trying to bet 70% of them on the flop. Which is about 100 hands. Ed says to have a 2:1 bluff to value ratio on the flop. So, you only need about 33 hands of value and 66 bluffs.

    Sound familiar?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    I might be a little rusty on this, but I think you're making a mistake. I'm sure you guys will help me out if I'm wrong.

    So, you start with 145 combos and you're trying to bet 70% of them on the flop. Which is about 100 hands. Ed says to have a 2:1 bluff to value ratio on the flop. So, you only need about 33 hands of value and 66 bluffs.

    Sound familiar?

    I agree but his 1\3 value is probably a lot of 1 pair hands. I think he wants more board coverage which is why i suggested looking into his range.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I agree but his 1\3 value is probably a lot of 1 pair hands. I think he wants more board coverage which is why i suggested looking into his range.
    It will depend on the 3 bet range OP is using, but in general, it's going to be difficult to find many combos of value that aren't one pair hands on this board.

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,650 -
    @Austin is on the right track re: board coverage.

    Also, there are two major things to consider:

    1. When Miller explains how the river 2v:1b rolls back into the turn and flop ratios, consider how it would rollback further to preflop...
    2. Remember the rule about splitting the ratio difference based upon how many streets of betting you'll have.

    Put all of those together, and you've got yourself a great starting point...
    My latest poker course brings the popular book 'Poker's 1%' to life- The One Percent
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    I agree but his 1\3 value is probably a lot of 1 pair hands. I think he wants more board coverage which is why i suggested looking into his range.
    It will depend on the 3 bet range OP is using, but in general, it's going to be difficult to find many combos of value that aren't one pair hands on this board.

    Merge range will have lots of difficulty. A polarized range will have more value on this board that can with stand pressure.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    jveasy wrote: »
    Is this ok? Or does it mean my pf 3betting range is messed up? But mostly I just want to make sure if I am doing the analysis correctly for a 3bet pot. I'm thinking it's the same as if the I had open raised only difference being that my starting range will contain less combos when I 3bet vs when I Open raise right?

    Just chasing 70% CB is WRONG!

    You can waste a lot of study time trying to build ranges based on some arbitrary 70% number, and not learn much or even worse think you learned something only to find out later how wrong you were.

    CB frequency will vary based on at least: RvR equity on given flop, position, stacks, CB sizing.......
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Merge range will have lots of difficulty. A polarized range will have more value on this board that can with stand pressure.
    So, what do we do about this preflop?