Monster Pot in 1/2/5 game

deuce74daysdeuce74days Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
Hi everyone. Pretty fun hand here and wanted to get the community's thoughts on how everyone played it.

This 1/2 game is by far the biggest I've played. There are usually at least 2-3 stacks over $1000 on the table, and almost everyone straddles for $5 either UTG or on the BTN.

In this hand, a good LAG player playing around $1000 is straddling UTG, and a player in MP ($1200 stack) opens to $20.

I've been running unbelievably well and have a stack of ~$1500, and I look down at 5h5c in the SB. I decide to just flat call here, although I am worried about a potential 3-bet from the straddle. My hand is too good to fold, and a 3-bet seems overly aggressive with a small pocket pair here. Thankfully, the straddle just calls and we go 3-ways.

Flop comes Ks 6d 5d, so I flop bottom set. I check, the straddle checks and MP c-bets for 35 (into the pot of 60). With two diamonds on the board and quite a few straight draws available I decide to go for the check/raise, so I bump it up to 115. The straddle folds and the MP player calls.

To the turn, pot size is $290 now. Turn is the 10h, which seems like a somewhat inconsequential card. Maybe some draws will make a pair here, but it's pretty much a blank.

I continue betting, $225 now, and the MP player calls. Pot is now 740, and the effective stack behind is 840.

The river comes the 8h, so 97 gets there, but it feels like only 9d7d would get here. Otherwise, I'm only beat by KK and 66, as I don't think my opponent ever has TT or 88 here.

However, I'm not sure I can get value from many worse hands - maybe KT or Td8d exactly, but KT might fold the flop sometimes. I decide to check and hope the villain will bluff with his missed flush draws.

He goes for the overbet, shoving ~840 into ~740. I call pretty much immediately and my opponent mucks. He later told me he had 8d7d for a flopped OESFD.

Personally, I think I'd be 3-betting that hand on the flop to get it in, and balancing that by sometimes making the same play with KK some of the time. Is that too narrow of a range? Is he right to call with all hands he wants to continue with on the flop?

Would be great to get your thoughts. Thanks Red Chippers!

Comments

  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 717 ✭✭✭
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    When you say balance, it seems as though you’re implying that your check raising range will be 55 and it will be balanced with KK. What bluffs do you have? Obviously, 55 and KK is not balanced.

    Otherwise, nice hand and nice check on the river. We don’t know too much about this player, but it was apparently a very good check as this player is willing to bluff. If he isn’t the type to bluff or make a thin value bet, then bettting is better. For example, if you’ve ranged him to a weak/showdown value type hand, you can always make a very small bet if he’s the type looking to make a fold on most rivers. However, his range does smell a little draw heavy, so I like your check.
  • CruelPaiMeiCruelPaiMei Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    Nice post. Can't see how you could've played it better.

    I think when he just calls your big turn bet you can take the sets out of his range.

    As far as your opponents play... yeah, I think if he bets and decides he's never folding then maybe he should be 3 bet shoving back the flop. Otherwise maybe check flop back to pot control.
  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    edited November 15
    Welcome to red chip Forums jcobain!

    Well played, and well done!
    Personally, I think I'd be 3-betting that hand on the flop to get it in, and balancing that by sometimes making the same play with KK some of the time. Is that too narrow of a range? Is he right to call with all hands he wants to continue with on the flop?

    I understand your question is about balancing OESFDs with very strong hands.
    Normally when we talk about balance, we talk about balancing bluffs and semi-bluffs with very strong hands.
    However, on the flop, an OESFD is its not a bluff or a semi-bluff... Its a strong hand also!!! Its a favorite over top pair and just a small underdog to a set or two-pair.

    Lots of other arguments for getting an OESFD in on the flop, such as that we get to see the river for free, we don't have a difficult decision if we miss the turn, we don't scare our opponent off if we hit the turn. Plus we have fold equity if we are making the 3-bet on the flop.

    Hope that helps answer your question, ans wishing you many future pots like that one!
  • Faustovaldez123Faustovaldez123 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 596 ✭✭✭
    edited November 15
    Not much of a range u could balance trough a XR @jcobain@alumni.nd.edu unless ure going to add Kx in ure XR range

    I disagree also with not many hands not calling you on river, his range is mostly Kx here so I would bet again especially since ure perceived ranged is also missed draws but glad it worked out
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • deuce74daysdeuce74days Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    I think my x/r range here is going to be my combo draws i.e. 9d8d, 8d7d, 9d7d (not sure I have the calling in the SB), weaker flush draws (J high or worse), and OESDs. That should balance my value range of 66, 55 and 65s. I may actually have too many bluffs in this spot. What do you think is a good semi-bluff range here?
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    I think my x/r range here is going to be my combo draws i.e. 9d8d, 8d7d, 9d7d (not sure I have the calling in the SB), weaker flush draws (J high or worse), and OESDs. That should balance my value range of 66, 55 and 65s. I may actually have too many bluffs in this spot. What do you think is a good semi-bluff range here?

    Dig a little deeper. Why are you check raising in the first place? Build your range off of that.
  • Faustovaldez123Faustovaldez123 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 596 ✭✭✭
    edited November 15
    Ure looking at balancing wrong @jcobain@alumni.nd.edu , also u value more of understanding what ure opponent is trying to do and use ure hand for information to take the next action
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • deuce74daysdeuce74days Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Dig a little deeper. Why are you check raising in the first place? Build your range off of that.

    So in this spot, I think I'm choosing the weaker draws I'd like to continue with and x/r'ing them to gain fold equity and take the initiative in the hand so that when I hit I can make sure a bet goes in as I'm OOP.

    I'm also x/r'ing my value hands (55, 66, 65s) to deny equity to the many available straight and flush draws.

    Am I thinking about this the right way? How do I use that information to build a range?
  • deuce74daysdeuce74days Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    I disagree also with not many hands not calling you on river, his range is mostly Kx here so I would bet again especially since ure perceived ranged is also missed draws but glad it worked out

    How much would you suggest betting here? I think I can go relatively big because I'll have some missed draws, but overbetting seems like a mistake when I'm capped and my opponent can have the nuts.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 773 ✭✭✭
    Regarding V's play on the flop (3-bet vs. call your raise), I'd actually lean toward calling. I get all the arguments posted for why to raise, and they're spot on. I'd still call in V's situation.

    Why?

    1) I think V has minimal fold equity. Yes, V might be a favorite, semi-bluffs are uniquely powerful because they include FE and are protected by the draws if/when an opponent calls. I don't your actions indicating that you would be likely to fold, and V must improve against basically any hand that you would go all-in with.

    2) Given the action and stack sizes, I think that there is a good enough chance of it all getting in if V hits on the turn. Say that the straight hits. Odds are that you're betting and then calling if/when V shoves. Say that the flush hits. If you bet and V calls, then odds are that it's getting in on the river -- you don't really have enough to fold even if you check and V bets on the river. And if V shoves the turn, then you're likely calling. If you check the turn and V bets, say, half the pot, then you're not going anywhere. The only hands that don't really get much more money on the turn (i.e., check-fold) are hands that bluffed with pure air, and that's likely not part of your range here.

    In sum, given the very low FE if V shoves the flop coupled with high possibility of getting in anyway should either of his draws hit, I think that forcing it in on the flop is risking money on a draw that need not be placed into the pot until V has a made hand.

    The only downside is if the draws miss and you were to shove the river. But, that's unlikely. And, if you do, then V has an easy and inexpensive fold. If you bet, say, half pot to leave yourself with a meaningful river bet, then V has an easy and clearly priced-in call.

    So, I'd flat-call your flop raise in V's situation, as well.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Dig a little deeper. Why are you check raising in the first place? Build your range off of that.

    So in this spot, I think I'm choosing the weaker draws I'd like to continue with and x/r'ing them to gain fold equity and take the initiative in the hand so that when I hit I can make sure a bet goes in as I'm OOP.

    I'm also x/r'ing my value hands (55, 66, 65s) to deny equity to the many available straight and flush draws.

    Am I thinking about this the right way? How do I use that information to build a range?

    Consider how your opponent will respond to a check raise. Are they the type to call a lot? Fold a lot? What's your image? Have you been caught check raising as a bluff lately? All of these things can help determine how your range should look and help you build the range in a way that isn't limited to high equity hands. After all, if you check raise a weak draw against a player who won't fold, who's winning?