TPTK vs check raise 3-way

AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭✭
MP 23/15/8 over 40 hands
BTN 50/0 over 2 hands
10NL six max

UTG folds
MP opens .29
Hero CO raises to $1
BTN calls $1
blinds folds
MP calls $1

Flop ($3.15) :4d :Jc :Qd
MP checks
hero :Ad :Qs bets $1.30
BTN calls
MP raises to $4.75
Hero calls $3.45
BTN calls $3.45

Turn ($17.40) :4c
MP bets $8.27
Hero calls $4.81 all in
BTN calls $3.90 all in

On the flop only hand I could think of that beat me was JJ or 44, but 44 is unlikely once the turn comes. My main concern was I hold :Ad and the :Qd is already on the board, so that leaves some :Kd :Jd or :Jd :Td type flush draws which I am ahead of. I didn't think I could fold with a 3-4 SPR going to the flop. Question is do I call down or do I shove flop? I decided to call down because of the player behind me to add extra value to my hand. Not really worried about any turn card including a :Xd because I hold the :Ad, so I wont be folding at any point.

Will share results later.

Comments

  • Guilherme SGuilherme S Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited November 15
    Hey Austin, sorry about my english. I am new here and i really start to discuss some hands. Im playing NL5 in pokerstars.pt.

    Each situation is a situation and you were at the table, not me so you knews the dinamics and all that stuff...

    FLOP - you are against 2 players, one ip and one oop - you pick up a TPTK and a backdoor flush and a backdoor straight so i think you are way ahead.
    If you start the hand with 100 bb now you have 90bb and there is a pot with 30bb.

    For me this is one of the toughest spots, when you are in the middle of two players so i would prefer to check and hope to see the turn or check/raise if somebody bets.

    Every turn card will be good for you, i think!

    With that 4c nothing changes. I think if he had JJ he probably check to get more action turn and river.

    So in my opinion your call is good.
    You beat almost every range.

    I will wait for the hand result!
    See ya

  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
    The EP player feels strong and the BTN feels like he's on the draw. Could EP open raise QJs and then call your 3bet pre?

    So EP check/raises you with what? He's 23/15 so looks like he knows what he's doing. What kind of range do you put him check/raising?

    And for sure if a diamond comes on the turn you're improving and strong, but once the board pairs, what is the EP player's range look like to push you both all in?
  • SliverOverlordSliverOverlord Red Chipper Posts: 242 ✭✭✭
    Starting Pre, I could go either way with a 3bet or a flat. You have a strong hand that certainly does better in a shallower pot, although when you flat vs a player who is already opening a relatively tight range, you dominate him more frequently.

    On the flop, I like your line, bet call, with the intention of stacking off on clean turn cards. While the :Ad does block some of his bluff range, I think MPs value range isn’t super strong either. Depending on how he views you, I could see him going as thin as KQ for value, but that depends on how tricky he can be.

    With the :Ad , the BDFD and back door gutter I could see an arguement for checking here, although at 10NL I like fast playing all hands that can make value bets.

    It’s weird that the BU called both the bet and the XR... I think he’s going to have a range of draws and top pairs, KQ, AQ, QTs, JTs KTs...
    With his range having those draws, I’m thinking that would weight the MP players range toward value. That would make me reconsider getting all the money in on this clean turn.

    With a 33% PSB behind I think your just committed. If they both have draws your doing great, if MP has a draw and BU has a TP, your doing great, but if MP has a value hand, you’re crushed. For me, it would depend on if MP can still have the JTs, KTs, and the flush draws, and he would XR bluff over 2 players.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    Are you committed with top pair top kicker, in a 3 way 3 bet pot with an spr of 3. Personally I like to use hands like this to evaluate should I be comitted here.

    Before I put a cent in the pot, what odds do I get at 3 to 1 spar....if I get all in with one of the players....well that 3 are hand 1 the pot 3 their hand...thats 3 of 7 or about 42%....

    But we have more information...we bet got called then got a committing raise...so how much equity if the third player folds do we need.
    Pot 3.15
    we bet 1.30
    btn calls 1.30
    Mp calls 1.30 and then(for calculations since we never fold if we call shoves for 8.26
    we have to call the 8.25..
    So what equity so we need.....8.26/ (8.26* 2+3.15+ 1.30*3) = 8.26/23.57 =.35 or 35%

    Of course you can account for the 3rd player getting in some % of the time..So lets evaluate this as a 2nd scenario he gets in then are equity is 8.26/(23.57 +7.35) = 28%

    So now we have to estimate the range of a 23/15 players...calling a 3 bet...and then check raising the flop...well a 23/15 is generally a passive fellow, the 8 aggression does not converge well by 40 hands. You have also seen him play


    So now lets assume he agro enough to raise all flush draws...8 out straight draws, over pairs, top pair + hands...

    He raises and calls your 3 bet oop ....what does that range look like.
    big suited connectors, AK, big suited broadway, pairs 22-JJ....some times 1/3 of the time aa and KK.

    Now he check raises all good draws top pair + hands....despite this board hits your 3 bet range (well the one he puts you on) pretty hard.....


    44 JJ 2 combos of KK and AA, KJd JTd T9s 98d 87d and that pretty much it..
    That give you 35% equity...If we add in AQs KQs discounted to 1/3 it goes up to about 37%

    and does not account for the 3rd player....for a minor get it in.

    if we now add in some hands for the 3rd player as well...AQ kq more draws suited connectors and suited 1 gappers down to around 76s in diamonds the t9s and 25% to big hands...

    Are equity drops to about 25% and a fold.....

    So with my assumptions if both players get it in its a fold, and if only the 3 better gets it in its breakeven slight call. And I think my assumptions were reasonably liberal...but yours may be different.

    for me this is either going to be a high variance low EV play or a High variance low -ev Play, and I tend to fold to these.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    With this hand i like a check to see what develops. Buttons range here should be pretty strong, and if you face a cr from mp your path moving forward is pretty clear. While you block AA and QQ, youre also blocking AK, nfd which moves his range toward some AK, AA/KK a small portion, JJ/44 a small portion, QJs, TT, AQ, JTs and a smattering of lower diamond combos. Youre either way ahead or way behind and the bet is narrowing villains’ ranges toward the latter. This hand serves best as a bluffcatcher imo. Its going to be really tough to get it in good here with 2 other players in a 3bet pot.

    When you put money in here with this spr, you cant fold which means youre essentially leveraging yourself here.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭✭
    MP had :Jd :9d and BTN AJo. River bricked and hero scooped.

    My struggle with this hand is that the check raise felt really strong but with low SPR i dont think i should be folding despite blocking some FD.

    Another reason i stacked off was my downbet on the flop may have induced some of the action. I should have shared some of my own image at the table but with only a little history hard to know what they think of my image. Overall I had a very tag \ aggro image preflop running around 23\20\15
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭✭
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    With this hand i like a check to see what develops. Buttons range here should be pretty strong, and if you face a cr from mp your path moving forward is pretty clear. While you block AA and QQ, youre also blocking AK, nfd which moves his range toward some AK, AA/KK a small portion, JJ/44 a small portion, QJs, TT, AQ, JTs and a smattering of lower diamond combos. Youre either way ahead or way behind and the bet is narrowing villains’ ranges toward the latter. This hand serves best as a bluffcatcher imo. Its going to be really tough to get it in good here with 2 other players in a 3bet pot.

    When you put money in here with this spr, you cant fold which means youre essentially leveraging yourself here.

    Checking to the button seems a little odd because of a T, K, Diamond, 9, J roll off on the turn it improves the callers range.

    I can't wrap my head around checking this flop and giving a free card. It seems like im ahead of most of their range besides JJ. Discounted KK. Which makes it a easy value bet, but a small value bet because i block a lot of their calling range.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    A diamond may be slightly worse for your range as a whole, but that makes checking this hand better because now you have equity and board coverage on diamond turns. While less significant with small sprs, its still a necessary consideration. If youre going to protect your checking range, it seems like AdQx is one of your best hands to accomplish this.

    You are very likely ahead of both of their ranges before flop action ensues, but are you ahead of both ranges when money goes in on the flop, particularly when mp cr into two players? Specifically a player that 3 bet and a player that cold called the 3bet pre AND called a cb with another player behind?

    I think you were fortunate in running into the stone bottom of both players ranges, which you must have recognized because you posted this hand. It also sounds like a really good game and i hope you continued to print.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭✭
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    A diamond may be slightly worse for your range as a whole, but that makes checking this hand better because now you have equity and board coverage on diamond turns. While less significant with small sprs, its still a necessary consideration. If youre going to protect your checking range, it seems like AdQx is one of your best hands to accomplish this.

    You are very likely ahead of both of their ranges before flop action ensues, but are you ahead of both ranges when money goes in on the flop, particularly when mp cr into two players? Specifically a player that 3 bet and a player that cold called the 3bet pre AND called a cb with another player behind?

    I think you were fortunate in running into the stone bottom of both players ranges, which you must have recognized because you posted this hand. It also sounds like a really good game and i hope you continued to print.

    It was a very short session as I only had about 20 minutes to play before having to leave, but won almost 4 buyins so thats nice. Im trying to rebuild my online roll. 10NL im crushing over couple thousand hands (small sample 29bb\100) and since i got PT4 only played 1 session at 25NL but basically break even over 1000 hands .99\100. Hoping to win 5bb\100 at these levels and eventually keep moving up where i can understand a 2-3bb\100 win rate at 50nl or 100nl.

    Anyways back to the hand. Your reasoning hits the nail right on the head and i 100% agree even to the point with why im posting the hand. As @eazzy broke down some math above so equities run pretty close and honestly i almost folded the flop.

    I wanted to discuss their ranges a bit more. And also the statement about having board coverage on the turn holding the Ad. I do not understand why as the agressor my board coverage would change on this particular board. My 3 bet range is pretty wide including some suited gap broadways and TT+, AQ+ Axs. Where I'm 3 betting in CO vs MP i don't have coverage on boards such as 875dd, higher card board coverage and flushes are all within my range. As i 3 bet from the blinds or btn i hAve basically all board coverages except vs utg range which i choose to flat a large portion of my range unless they are laggy raising like 20%+ from Utg.

    MP can have a very wide range for opening but ill discuss the hands that you a check raise line on QJ4dd against two people.

    MP x\r: Td9d, Jd9d, Td8d, KdJd, QhJh, KdTd, 44, JJ, KhQh, KcQc, KK (1combo), AA (1 combo)

    BTN. for calling the 3 bet without any stats on him I would say A10s+, 22+, 98s+, AJ+, KQ+. It does seem a little wide for a cold call 3 bet range but given the hand he showed up with i think that's reasonable range for him to call the 3bet. Then for calling the cbet which was a downbet around 1\3 pot. I think most of that range continues but drop 22,33, and 55-TT. Not sure if he would call other suited gap broadways like QTs or not. It does leave btn range pretty narrow for continuing against the CR. To hands like T9s, KQs, 44, JJ, ... Where i can get value from the initial cbet once the check raise comes in i have to decide if I'm committing or not. Equities seem very close to break even... Maybe like 40% - 30%-30%.....?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭✭
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    I went ahead and ran some equities and where I thought I may be ahead even with my blocker, once i only put their get it in range on this board to 8 outs or more... Think i forgot K10d for MP but only small change in %. Im a little shocked to see I'm that far behind. Giving them pair + combo draws, sets, and even KQs (2 combo) since most Qs are accounted for im only 20%.

    Do these numbers and ranges look correct for hands that will check raise this board? I narrowed btns range to hands that will call a cbet and a check raise. The actual range appears to be wider given his exact hand.

    Now that I ran the numbers I can see where people are saying they would check this board because the get it in range is ahead of mine. Many bad turn cards though, so now my question is

    A) bet fold
    B) check call
    C) check fold

    Bet fold i would still downbet since i have Ad blocker so i can barrel some turns or take a free card.

    Check call any reasonable size bet but fold to a bet raise if btn bets and mp raises (option C).

    Good learning experience for me with this hand. I would assume this is a major leak in many peoples games having tptk in a 3 bet pot with so little equity. I still think 3 betting is good preflop though for value. @ the micros they are folding majority of the time to 70%+ 3 bets so im kinda printing money. Just working on my postflop game.
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
    Good hand analysis - this was one of the better ones.

    I feel like BTN might be calling wider. To sit there passively calling early aggression with you in between seems weak and passive and maybe bad, so maybe he's got more.

    Also, looking back you could try running this with revised MP range that does include J9dd type combos, opening up his range as well. Not that you knew it at the time but the info exists now. I'm not sure what you can take from it tho? Is it actionable or do you continue playing guys in that spot tighter?
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    I was thinking of this hand a bit.....and one concept enters here
    As my math came up (right or wrong) its pretty close.....
    but that largely caused by your less then 1/2 bet on the flop. If you know your going with the hand, Just make a 2/3 pot bet (or at least 1/2 pot bet) and low and behold even my nitty range analysis has me calling.

    Its one of the concepts in No Limit Hd'em theory and practice. Try not to make bets that put you on that, might be a call might be a fold edge. Here if you want to go get it in with a 3 to 1 spr....bet enough so that you can't fold, or bet small enough (here just about impossible) so you can fold.

    Of course your bet size might be fine, if you don't expect it to go 3 way, after you cbet. and planned on fold to flop aggression (if it just goes 2 way).

    I find this is one of the hardest parts of my game, with me often running the numbers and finding that my bet size puts me right on the border between calling and folding.
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
    I learned this one the other day with my brilliant coach - in those spots where you are betting a lot of your range, bet small. In those spot where you are rarely betting, bet large. Not sure if it applies here but might be useful?