# Preflop Fold of AKo?

DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
UTG raise to 6
MP raise to 12
Hero call 12 with AKo
UTG all in for 81 all day
MP folds.
Hero?

So 69 more to get 105 right?
What to do? And whats the logic of the decision process?

Thanks!
«1

• Red Chipper Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭✭
It's simple pot odds vs equity. It would be good practice and a learning experience to run the numbers yourself. Calculate the equity needed to call and run your hand against a range that you think Villain will do this with.
• Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
I recommend Poker Math That Matters.
• Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
It's more than simple pot odds, though @Ninjah hinted at the deeper question at the end: What type of player is this V?

Is V a player who only looks at his cards and raises the best? Is V the type of player looks for opportunities to squeeze? Is V on tilt? Has V made a small raise like this before, and, if so, then what does that mean -- pot-builder or premium hand?

Those are the key questions. Once you have those answered, then you can revert to pot odds and math to determine if a call or fold is the better play.
• Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
The decision can also be engineered in reverse, via pot odds.

Sometimes it's easier to draw the line mathematically, then proceed to assumptions, and strategy.
• Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
eugeniusjr wrote: »
Sometimes it's easier to draw the line mathematically, then proceed to assumptions, and strategy.

I agree that it's easier. I would rather search for what's better.
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
I don't really have a set of poker analysis tools or techniques yet. Is this something I would use Flopzilla for?
• Red Chipper Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
Equilab will do the job.

Flopzilla works too, but shows many info we don't need.
• Red Chipper Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
WardoYT wrote: »
Red wrote: »
Equilab will do the job.

Flopzilla works too, but shows many info we don't need.

Is Equilab a one month purchase?

Equilab is free :)
https://www.pokerstrategy.com/poker-software-tools/equilab-holdem/
• RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
Red wrote: »
WardoYT wrote: »
Red wrote: »
Equilab will do the job.

Flopzilla works too, but shows many info we don't need.

Is Equilab a one month purchase?

Equilab is free :)
https://www.pokerstrategy.com/poker-software-tools/equilab-holdem/

And if you need to learn how to use it, start here: https://www.splitsuit.com/stop-using-pokerstove-start-using-equilab

But @Ninjah is spot on - you will get FAR more out of this by analyzing the spot on your own. Also take some time to say "OK, what if the shove was for 45, 81, and 120?" and proof those. And for bonus extra credit - do the same math when you hold something like JJ instead and see where things differ...
📑 Grab my custom poker spreadsheet pack right now.
📘 Start the Preflop & Math Poker Workbook today.
• Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
Also consider the range MP 3-bet folded, as he could have at least one of your outs.

-rJ
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
Thanks everyone. Also I watched the video @SplitSuit . So now I know how these tools work in general. This is fun adjusting the range and seeing the results.

The first thing this made me realize is that he probably didn't have AA or KK. So my equity is pretty high.

So let's say I have 55% equity. How does this tell me if calling is worth it based on the cost and pot?
• Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
dnoyeB wrote: »
So let's say I have 55% equity. How does this tell me if calling is worth it based on the cost and pot?

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/mathematics/pot-odds/

• RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
bigburge10 wrote: »
dnoyeB wrote: »
So let's say I have 55% equity. How does this tell me if calling is worth it based on the cost and pot?

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/mathematics/pot-odds/

That, and then this:

📑 Grab my custom poker spreadsheet pack right now.
📘 Start the Preflop & Math Poker Workbook today.
• Red Chipper Posts: 52 ✭✭

Is there a Chrome compatible version?

• Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
OMG H wrote: »

Is there a Chrome compatible version?

I haven't used Equilab yet but I'm pretty sure it's software you download to your computer so it doesn't matter which browser you have.
• Red Chipper Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 2017
@OMG H : @Jónas S is right : it's a software to download
• Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
I have to say, you have the best name drops in RCP posts.
• RCP Coach Posts: 53 ✭✭
dnoyeB wrote: »
UTG raise to 6
MP raise to 12
Hero call 12 with AKo
UTG all in for 81 all day
MP folds.
Hero?

So 69 more to get 105 right?
What to do? And whats the logic of the decision process?

Thanks!

Player dependent honestly. Very very few players will put in more than a 3-bet with less than an ultra-premium. This guy opened UTG, then 4 bet all in. That's insanely strong at 1/2. If this guy is a lower VPIP player, then you can justify a fold here and take the low variance route. If he is kind of a monkey, then so bet it. Beat this hand.

I usually tell my holdem students that it is much better to make a small mistake and fold at a small cost (or for free) than it is to make a large mistake that requires a large call.

Hope this helps!
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
@Octavian I UTG was all-in for \$81 so the effective stacks are \$81. I would definitely call knowing what I now know. He would not have initially raised AA or KK just \$6. But yes I realize I need to evaluate the player and build a range to use these tools. I just didn't know exactly how to use these tools until now.
• DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
@SplitSuit that was the video I needed to see. Thanks!
• Red Chipper Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
dnoyeB wrote: »
@Octavian I UTG was all-in for \$81 so the effective stacks are \$81. I would definitely call knowing what I now know. He would not have initially raised AA or KK just \$6. But yes I realize I need to evaluate the player and build a range to use these tools. I just didn't know exactly how to use these tools until now.

Some 1/2\$ have leaks and tend to play monster premium differently. Some will limp-raise them, some will size larger.
Nonetheless, most of players will use the same sizing. Thus, I'd not discard AA/KK from his range just because it's 6\$. Only if he did it before at least once.
• Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
Octavian I wrote: »
dnoyeB wrote: »
@Octavian I UTG was all-in for \$81 so the effective stacks are \$81. I would definitely call knowing what I now know. He would not have initially raised AA or KK just \$6. But yes I realize I need to evaluate the player and build a range to use these tools. I just didn't know exactly how to use these tools until now.

You dominate 4 of AX, even with 2 of the AK, flip against QQ and cut the two monsters in half. You are 58:42. If he doesn't have AA you are 60:40 and if he doesn't have the KK you are 63:37. You can give him even the JJ, TT, 99 as a bonus and still be ahead.

Our of curiosity where are you getting your ratios from?

Hero AKo
Villains range:
AA (3 combos)
KK (3 combos)
AKs (2 combos)
AQs (2 combos)
AQo (6 combos)
AKo (6 combos)
QQ - TT = (18 combos)

AKo is still behind that range 47:52
AK (43 : 56) vs QQ
AK (43 : 56) vs QQ-99 (basically all pairs)
AK (46:53) against QQ-99, AQs,

You cant just discount AA and KK and figure AK is ahead of a range and start making up random numbers.

• Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
Austin wrote: »

The concepts @Octavian I comes up with are so unusual that I doubt he's read them in any book. He has an active imagination, you have to give him that :) That in itself isn't a bad trait. His conclusions, on the other hand, .......

• Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
Octavian I wrote: »
If he mostly limps but sometime raises, you put him on weak limping hands and strong raising hands.

Well first of all, this is a player profile you're assuming to be true, and we don't have enough to assume that. Which means that your following conclusion is wrong, but for sake of argument, let's make that assumption for now, because your following conclusion is wrong anyway.
Octavian I wrote: »
His raising hands are located in the upper left corner of the hands table. (you know what I'm talking about, Right?) Over there in the upper left corner you have a square of 3x3 with 9 hands

Well, I don't know what THE hands table means. But one many of us use is Equilab.

So go to Equilab, click on the "hand range selection" button for the player (the one with the 9 card icon), and then look at the card matrix. Go to the little blue slider button below the matrix. Start sliding the right slider button to the right, which gives us a percentage of starting hands that most players consider to be the strongest. You will quickly see it doesn't form at any time a square of any size, 3x3 or otherwise.

So we can quibble and debate over which hands should be prioritized in each top X% of starting hands, and some of us might choose different hands (which hand is better, TT or AK?). But I really doubt anyone will come up with a square pattern. Just for starters, I don't know anyone who would prefer KQ over AJ or JJ for that matter.
• Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
Octavian I wrote: »
Oh,.. well,.. you play your no-limit Hold'em by your little Equilab but I tell you this:
AJo, KQo, KJo, KTo, QJo, QTo and JTo are all above in your EQLab but 98s or T9s or even 87s, 76s all play better after the flop and beyond

That isn't true in general, but in a roundabout way I think you just proved my point for me. And that is why we don't use 3x3 squares. The ironic thing about this is you assumed we're playing against a little square of 9 hands, which is extremely unlikely to be true. And the reason is that different people have different ideas of which hands play well postflop and their respective odds of hitting and their implied odds.
• Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
I have to say, you have the best name drops in RCP posts.
Now, according to my good friend and neighbor Mike Matusow
This is how I view this relationship...
Matusow = Bateman, Octavian = Nathan