1/3 Preflop All In at the Bellagio

deuce74daysdeuce74days Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
edited November 2017 in Live Poker Hands
I played this hand at the Bellagio about a month ago. After the hand, the Villain berated me for my poor play, but I think his doing so simply betrays a lack of understanding on his part. I would love to get the community's thoughts.

Prior to this hand, I'd only been at the table for ~30 mins but I had been very aggressive, punishing limpers with large preflop raises and squeezing quite often. It seemed like the other players at the table didn't know how to adjust, aside from the Villain who was immediately to my right.

About 5 mins prior to this hand, I'd raised an OMC's limp with 99 and he shoved for ~100. He'd been visibly frustrated with my limping and so I called after thinking for a while, and he mucked when the board ran out all low cards before seeing my hand, at which point I showed to the table.

Villain in this hand commented that he was sure OMC had AA before he mucked, which I think I should've read more into, as I think my mistake in the later hand was giving the Villain too much credit for his ability to bluff and a comment like this seems to betray that he would never consider the possibility of a 3bet bluff, and certainly not a 4bet bluff.

3 limpers
HJ (330 effective) opens to 20
Hero (CO) 3-bets to 65 with :Js:Jc
Folds back to HJ, who thinks for about 15 seconds and shoves
I think for a while and call as I think that 3-bet-folding JJ is a disaster and since I'm bluffing a lot in this spot, I have to call with a hand this high up in my distribution. I'm also giving him credit for being an aggressive player who's capable of making this move with AQ+ and bluffing at some frequency, which means this is a call.

However, Villain shows KK. He holds and scoops the pot.

By his comments, I think he's saying that he's never bluffing here, so it must have been a misread on my part. However, I think against the average young, aggressive player at the Bellagio this is probably the right call.

If Villain is berating me for calling with JJ, why is he shoving? If he can only get action from QQ+ and AK (which he blocks), surely he should be flatting here to keep my bluffs around?

What are your thoughts Red Chippers?

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think he is a stone cold idiot.

    This, however, is what Octavian is talking about with player pool tendencies. It may be wrong to fold and to think about it this way in theory, but with a bunch of bitch ass nits in Vegas, you'll take the worst of it a lot.

    Don't sweat it, you're going places, he's not.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    For me, I would have just mucked after I lost. But, if you end up talking about the hand afterwards, that's alright. What's crazy is that this player would berate you for making a call with a hand that they want you to call with. I think what's happening here is that this player wants to demonstrate their "superiority", hoping you'll begin to pick their brain on how to play poker and bow to them like some samurai warrior. Unfortunately for him, you have plenty of better resources.
  • deuce74daysdeuce74days Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    For me, I would have just mucked after I lost. But, if you end up talking about the hand afterwards, that's alright.

    We turned the hands over after the money went in but before the flop came down. I tend to do this because I enjoy the sweat. I think it brings more fun to the table which encourages people to gamble more. Is the information I'm giving away more valuable than that?
  • Yanming ZYanming Z Red Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2017
    Usually when someone shove against 1 opponent for 5x the pot pre flop with AA, KK indicates his lack of confidence in post flop play. And yes when he shoves for 100bb+ it's almost never a bluff, and I think JJ here is a fold. Your best case scenario here is flipping with AK, AQ. Your equity against QQ+ AK is only 36%, make this a negative EV call. Don't let his behavior lead you to think he's bullying you with trash hands, as this is a strategy some people use to tilt their opponents. Unless you have seen him bluff shove before, don't assume he's capable because he berated you.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    We turned the hands over after the money went in but before the flop came down. I tend to do this because I enjoy the sweat. I think it brings more fun to the table which encourages people to gamble more. Is the information I'm giving away more valuable than that?
    I tend to not show, but there's nothing wrong with creating that fun environment. Maybe I should do that more.

  • Zero CoolZero Cool Red Chipper Posts: 272 ✭✭✭
    Is the information I'm giving away more valuable than that?

    At 1/2 and 1/3 most players are not paying close enough attention or are not good enough to use the information you give away against you but I would be careful when you move up to higher level games.
  • deuce74daysdeuce74days Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    Yanming Z wrote: »
    Unless you have seen him bluff shove before, don't assume he's capable because he berated you.
    He berated me after I used that assumption, and it's what I used to reconsider. I considered him capable because he appeared to be a young, LAG player from other things I'd seen at the table.
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    A low stakes Vegas LAG is still a nit just less nitty lol
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What are your thoughts Red Chippers?

    Did you really go to Notre Dame?
  • deuce74daysdeuce74days Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    Did you really go to Notre Dame?

    yeah - any idea how I change to a real username?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    did the Fighting Irish not teach you how to use the "research" function?

    check out this thread: Change Username
  • deuce74daysdeuce74days Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    did the Fighting Irish not teach you how to use the "research" function?

    check out this thread: Change Username

    Beautiful, thanks!
  • keith ckeith c Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
    Prior to this hand, I'd only been at the table for ~30 mins but I had been very aggressive, punishing limpers with large preflop raises and squeezing quite often. It seemed like the other players at the table didn't know how to adjust, aside from the Villain who was immediately to my right.

    About 5 mins prior to this hand, I'd raised an OMC's limp with 99 and he shoved for ~100. He'd been visibly frustrated with my limping and so I called after thinking for a while, and he mucked when the board ran out all low cards before seeing my hand, at which point I showed to the table.

    Villain in this hand commented that he was sure OMC had AA before he mucked, which I think I should've read more into, as I think my mistake in the later hand was giving the Villain too much credit for his ability to bluff and a comment like this seems to betray that he would never consider the possibility of a 3bet bluff, and certainly not a 4bet bluff.

    Who would fold AA after a all in shove/call. This statement it a prequel for his later statement and says a lot.

    3 limpers
    HJ (330 effective) opens to 20
    Hero (CO) 3-bets to 65 with :Js:Jc
    Folds back to HJ, who thinks for about 15 seconds and shoves
    I think for a while and call as I think that 3-bet-folding JJ is a disaster and since I'm bluffing a lot in this spot, I have to call with a hand this high up in my distribution. I'm also giving him credit for being an aggressive player who's capable of making this move with AQ+ and bluffing at some frequency, which means this is a call.

    However, Villain shows KK. He holds and scoops the pot.

    By his comments, I think he's saying that he's never bluffing here, so it must have been a misread on my part. However, I think against the average young, aggressive player at the Bellagio this is probably the right call.

    If Villain is berating me for calling with JJ, why is he shoving? If he can only get action from QQ+ and AK (which he blocks), surely he should be flatting here to keep my bluffs around?

    This was just argued to death in another thread as others have said, but honestly heads up, I can't see this being a bad call. This was one of those cooler hands. So many times they will not have it. This time they did.
    I agree with @persuadeo I would have mucked also.
  • SliverOverlordSliverOverlord Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2017
    This is a spot I’ve found myself in often. I begin my poker learning journey multi tabling low stakes online, where I got very used to people shoving with a wider range (positionally dependant for some) of TT+ AK. In an environment like this, AA and KK for the most part play themselves, always raise pre and GII if possible.

    Making the switch to live, it seems like the only aspect of “optimal” play preflop everyone takes into consideration is that AA vs KK is a standard GII pre spot, but ignore the part where the reason you can do this is because your range should be wider than that. And once they narrow the ranges down, KK all in pre becomes a huge mistake, but hey, don’t be telling too many people about their mistakes... That alone made me realize how far behind the live real of poker is compared to online. 33 BB deep, I still think 99 is a call against almost everyone. There are a lot of guys that stick it in with as wide as ATs here when getting frustrated (and they will also call you a donkey when either they kiss or the T comes and they win). When it gets closer to 110 BB deep, I like tightening up my GII range because an average 1-3 player doesn’t Play anywhere near optimally when it comes to spots like this. It does come down to player pool reads, but for the most part that’s how Foxwoods and Mohegan 1-2 run. You’re 3bet prints money here though when facing this massive 4bet, if he’s a live guy, chances are you can make an exploitative fold, since you are almost always up against AA or KK.

    I think like you, 3bet folding JJ is a distasteful play, and poker logic would indicate that if you plan on three betting it, you should be calling, otherwise just flatting the 2bet, but so many live 1-2 and 1-3 pools are just littered with players where a 3bet prints and a call 4bet is a huge losing play. Learning to make that adjustment, but knowing it is just that, an adjustment based on tight 4betting and loose 3bet calling, will make you a better overall player, ready to tackle to tougher better players down the line who will play more optimally vs your 3bets
  • Raynard DRaynard D Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    There are few hard and fast rules at the table...should I fold JJ PF when I bet and someone jams over the top? If I gave at best 50/50 and asked you to coin flip 25 times would you do it? What if instead you won $36 on each win and lost $74 on each lost? If you do that all day long in a vacuum it may not serve your long EV needs. JJ in a PF war is sometimes like taking a knife to a gun fight.

    Instead with your aggression and ability to win pots; why not learn the skill to balance that aggression...against a tight player what do you think the worse thing a super aggression player can do? Ship and get the money in; no that just variance (aa/jj best case you are a 4/1 dog) and it going to happen...no skill just the luck of the draw.

    Skill comes in when you put him on a range from your reads at the table and paying attention to his 3bets, 4bets and shovels and seeing what he showdown hand after hand than ASKING HOW OFTEN ARE jj'S good in this spot...than having the discipline to lay down loser based on that range/read.

    As far as showing cards I use to do it because it fun esp. on bluffs. What I found is on the felt you are at war they want your chips and you want theirs....I do not what him knowing what weapons I am using. My goal is to make good decision while still being polite professional and a friend esp. to the talking fish.
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2017
    persuadeo wrote: »
    I think he is a stone cold idiot.

    This, however, is what Octavian is talking about with player pool tendencies. It may be wrong to fold and to think about it this way in theory, but with a bunch of bitch ass nits in Vegas, you'll take the worst of it a lot.

    Don't sweat it, you're going places, he's not.
    I play against these players. and almost only these players. I’m folding JJ all day long to these players who couldn’t stand up to me if their life depended on it and won’t even shove $300+ with AK or even QQ. They are calling with everything. Also they exhibit live tells when they shove that they are holding AA/KK. In some rare spots I set-mine correctly with KK and check/fold the flop. It just goes to show how relative stength and foolishly bretrayed information is everything in this game.

    Only at certain points in a game am I 3-betting JJ for this reason, of a potentially bad fold when they are getting very suspicious but most likely still not making a move(but who knows ultimately/maybe), and because I’m getting flatted by all AK and QQ/can’t get value post from worse against these players with JJ without a set anyway, combined with the fact that pairs are bad hands for postflop bluffing. Though I don’t love either, 44 is better than JJ to 3-bet against these guys I think because I can get value on 2-3 streets in a single-raised pot from these players with unimproved JJ if they are suspicous of me; no amount of suspicion will get them to call me with worse for stacks on the turn with PSB in a 3-bet pot.

    The point in the game that I start 3-betting JJ is when a 2-5 level player sitting down at 1-2 is suspicous who can call flop and turn and river with ATs on an T65 board.

    Everyone else is just fold-fold-folding. With small 3-bets(which I love), they fold like:
    Pre: 55%
    Flop: 50% of flops
    Turn: 60% of turns
    River: 15% of Rivers

    Concerning the berating, this is the only way this player can try to slow you down—shaming you. He just can’t bring himself to call you a donkey for 3-betting JJ, so instead he’s going to attack your choice of calling. He’s trying to get you to question your confidence in your decision making. If he succeeds, you probably won’t trust your decisions in 3-bet pots, and thus you will stop building them, Pre.

    Either that or he just loves to offer his opinion on everything.

    On second thought, nevermind.
    @persuadeo is right; this is just a super-opinionated moron that thinks AA/KK are the only hands to stack-off with.
    :Jd:Tc

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