Nut Flush Draw In Position

sandhu31sandhu31 Red Chipper Posts: 49 ✭✭
edited November 2017 in Live Poker Hands
Just wanted your thoughts on my line here:

[Live 2/5 game with effective stacks of $800]

Sat down a few hands ago and I don't have much history with the Villain. He's a recreational player that likes to see flops but I haven't seen him get out of line much post flop in my short time at the table.

-Villain raises to 20 in MP and Hero calls on the Button with :AS::8S: , everyone else folds

Flop is :QS::9S::3H:
-Villain bets 25, Hero makes it 70
-Villain makes it 160, Hero calls

Turn is :6D:
-Villain shoves ~600 and Hero folds

His cbet range was pretty wide here(A10+, a Queen, FD, SD, Pair + SD or FD, etc). Any insight on how to decide between flat calling or raising with FDs in flop situations like this. Once he raised, should I have maybe gone all in? Basically, any thoughts on how to determine what's optimal? Thanks!

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's optimal is to not shut yourself out of pots with hands that retain equity across all streets.
  • Yanming ZYanming Z Red Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2017
    There's was no reason to raise the flop, you are drawing to the nuts, you are in position, your hand has show down value, and you are getting a very good price to draw and realize your equity.

    If you had a hand like 78ss here then I'm on board with the flop raise, you can get better hands like A high and K high to fold, plus you have no show down value, and if your semi bluff fails and V re raises you, you can confidently fold.

    And no you should not have gone all in on the flop, the only reason to raise with draws is that you have fold equity, most people are not re raising a flop and plan to fold to a shove. So when you know your opponent is not gonna fold, just call and see the next card.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm far less absolute in my thoughts as @Yanming Z.

    I'd ask first about V and you. Have you been caught bluffing/semi-bluffing a few times? Have you never made it to showdown? Have your raises been shown to be strong/monster hands?

    What about V? Can he find a fold button to show of strength, or does he get sticky with his cards? Will he lead out bluff bets, or does he save his chips for when he has it?

    I could defend very easily a flat-call on the button or a raise, depending on the situation and players, as noted above.

    As @persuadeo said, though, you don't want to price yourself OUT of a hand that has massive equity. So, we need to add one more consideration to the questions: are you prepared to go all the way post-flop (based on your reads above)? If so, then calling his re-raise on the flop and folding the turn is, by far, the worst play that you could have. If you have decided to play this hand big, then, after your flop re-raise and V's re-raise, you need to shove. I'm not suggesting that this is the optimal play -- though it could be against certain Vs -- but it must be the play if you start down this path.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Qs9s3h

    Preflop can go either way with a flat or a 3bet or tighter players may even fold.

    Stacks are 160bb deep so raising the flop can go either way. Cause you rep AQ, 99, 33, J10s, KJs, T8s, Axs, etc. More draws in your range than made hands. Against a small cbet of 25 into 40 on this wet texture I like raising cause he is not repping strength with his bet size. I would go to around $85 though as your raise seems a little weak as well.

    Once he 3 bets i don't want to shove despite the 3bet only being like 2.2x. 3bet post flop are almost always nutted hands 99 or qq. Because he is recreational ill give him credit even with his small sizing. Im just calling the 3bet and folding the turn.

    On Qs9s5c type board we have more potential equity with A8s because we can barrel a lot of gutters on turn cards as well.
  • KemahPhilKemahPhil Red Chipper Posts: 108 ✭✭
    I'm inclined to raise it situations like that for several reasons. If V has not flopped a really big hand and calls, it will give him pause on the turn and you have a good chance of seeing the river without making another bet. If you don't raise and you miss the turn then he will most likely bet the turn and it will be difficult for you to call. Also, if you do bet and get called then hit the flush on the turn (or river), you are more likely to get paid off.

    After V three bets, I think folding is the right play. You're not getting the right odds to draw at your flush and V will almost certainly bet the turn if the flush does not hit.
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Calling the flop also keeps the stacks deep so that we can be the ones to put stacks in play with a big bluff-raise on the turn(should we choose to do so), setting us up for the final All-In river bet when we hit our hand OTR.
    :Jd:Tc
  • Mike DMike D Red Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    sandhu31 wrote: »
    Just wanted your thoughts on my line here:

    [Live 2/5 game with effective stacks of $800]

    Sat down a few hands ago and I don't have much history with the Villain. He's a recreational player that likes to see flops but I haven't seen him get out of line much post flop in my short time at the table.

    -Villain raises to 20 in MP and Hero calls on the Button with :AS::8S: , everyone else folds

    Flop is :QS::9S::3H:
    -Villain bets 25, Hero makes it 70
    -Villain makes it 160, Hero calls

    Turn is :6D:
    -Villain shoves ~600 and Hero folds

    His cbet range was pretty wide here(A10+, a Queen, FD, SD, Pair + SD or FD, etc). Any insight on how to decide between flat calling or raising with FDs in flop situations like this. Once he raised, should I have maybe gone all in? Basically, any thoughts on how to determine what's optimal? Thanks!

    I like the call preflop. It appears that he raised from early position so I don't want to raise, but I want to see a flop with A8 suited.
    I like the raise and call on the flop. You hope he folds to the raise and when he reraises small you have implied odds to call. At this point, you know he is never folding so 4 betting as a bluff is crazy.
    When you miss and he shoves the turn it is an easy fold.
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 342 ✭✭✭
    Calling feels like far and away the best play on the flop. You don't allow him to 3 bet and shut you out, and you keep your range wide open so you can make a believable play on the turn and retain positional advantage, leaving him guessing.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Roblivion wrote: »
    Calling feels like far and away the best play on the flop. You don't allow him to 3 bet and shut you out, and you keep your range wide open so you can make a believable play on the turn and retain positional advantage, leaving him guessing.

    Do you just flat your sets as well? I would assume we should be flatting our QX hands and raising our sets and combo draws for balance.
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 342 ✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Do you just flat your sets as well? I would assume we should be flatting our QX hands and raising our sets and combo draws for balance.

    I like to flat sets, flush draws, QT+, and JT here. With our sets, we keep him betting into us and can raise the turn or possibly slowplay till the river, depending on board texture and action. With our draws, we can utilize our positional advantage on the turn when the pot is larger and turn up the heat a little - I think it will be a more effective spot to push someone off something like KQ or JJ-TT. When he calls our turn bet and we jam on bricked rivers, we're pretty well poled to sets and missed draws.

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Roblivion wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Do you just flat your sets as well? I would assume we should be flatting our QX hands and raising our sets and combo draws for balance.

    I like to flat sets, flush draws, QT+, and JT here. With our sets, we keep him betting into us and can raise the turn or possibly slowplay till the river, depending on board texture and action. With our draws, we can utilize our positional advantage on the turn when the pot is larger and turn up the heat a little - I think it will be a more effective spot to push someone off something like KQ or JJ-TT. When he calls our turn bet and we jam on bricked rivers, we're pretty well poled to sets and missed draws.

    I agree with you on a more static board. Maybe something like Q52ss. I think Q93ss against a MP range creates a lot of bad turn cards for us when we hold a set, basically little over half the deck 8-K and spade. Most broadways and some T8s will be in MP range on this texture which is why i like raising with sets. Where as Q52ss besides a flush draw hitting the turn, another spade, we can raise just about any turn which gives MP more equity.
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 342 ✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Roblivion wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Do you just flat your sets as well? I would assume we should be flatting our QX hands and raising our sets and combo draws for balance.

    I like to flat sets, flush draws, QT+, and JT here. With our sets, we keep him betting into us and can raise the turn or possibly slowplay till the river, depending on board texture and action. With our draws, we can utilize our positional advantage on the turn when the pot is larger and turn up the heat a little - I think it will be a more effective spot to push someone off something like KQ or JJ-TT. When he calls our turn bet and we jam on bricked rivers, we're pretty well poled to sets and missed draws.
    I agree with you on a more static board. Maybe something like Q52ss. I think Q93ss against a MP range creates a lot of bad turn cards for us when we hold a set, basically little over half the deck 8-K and spade. Most broadways and some T8s will be in MP range on this texture which is why i like raising with sets. Where as Q52ss besides a flush draw hitting the turn, another spade, we can raise just about any turn which gives MP more equity.

    I get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure raising the flop really gets rid of the bad turn issue. Most of the hands that can hit one of your aforementioned bad turns will not be folding to our raise on the flop anyway. Then when a spade falls on the turn and we check it back, V can put us in a nasty spot on the river with a big bet. If, however, we call the flop, the pot stays a more manageable size and we can choose whether or not we want to raise turns or call V down (or even fold.)
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Roblivion wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Roblivion wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Do you just flat your sets as well? I would assume we should be flatting our QX hands and raising our sets and combo draws for balance.

    I like to flat sets, flush draws, QT+, and JT here. With our sets, we keep him betting into us and can raise the turn or possibly slowplay till the river, depending on board texture and action. With our draws, we can utilize our positional advantage on the turn when the pot is larger and turn up the heat a little - I think it will be a more effective spot to push someone off something like KQ or JJ-TT. When he calls our turn bet and we jam on bricked rivers, we're pretty well poled to sets and missed draws.
    I agree with you on a more static board. Maybe something like Q52ss. I think Q93ss against a MP range creates a lot of bad turn cards for us when we hold a set, basically little over half the deck 8-K and spade. Most broadways and some T8s will be in MP range on this texture which is why i like raising with sets. Where as Q52ss besides a flush draw hitting the turn, another spade, we can raise just about any turn which gives MP more equity.

    I get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure raising the flop really gets rid of the bad turn issue. Most of the hands that can hit one of your aforementioned bad turns will not be folding to our raise on the flop anyway. Then when a spade falls on the turn and we check it back, V can put us in a nasty spot on the river with a big bet. If, however, we call the flop, the pot stays a more manageable size and we can choose whether or not we want to raise turns or call V down (or even fold.)

    We fold out the naked gut shots like KT and only continues with spades, JT, or Qx. Also a hand like KK or AA may 3 bet thinking we are drawing and get it in where as AA may fold when a straight comes in and we raise. I agree on slow playing some frequency of the time the way you described but as a default im raising around 3.5x.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    While the conversation understandably focuses on the flop play, I'd like to bring back the point that I would fold this pre-flop. A hand that gains its equity from semi-bluffs often becomes a big-pot hand. By calling pre-flop, you're unnecessarily setting yourself up for a high variance hand or a pre-flop call and flop fold when you miss.
  • KemahPhilKemahPhil Red Chipper Posts: 108 ✭✭
    Mike D Red Chipper

    I like the call preflop. It appears that he raised from early position so I don't want to raise, but I want to see a flop with A8 suited.
    I like the raise and call on the flop. You hope he folds to the raise and when he reraises small you have implied odds to call. At this point, you know he is never folding so 4 betting as a bluff is crazy.
    When you miss and he shoves the turn it is an easy fold.[/quote]

    I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that you have implied odds to call the $90 reraise. Are you assuming that he will call if you hit your flush?
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    man i really hope people are serious when they say A8s is a fold facing an open from mid holding a suited ace on the button. Please come sit in my game to my left so i get 2 buttons per orbit.

    What are your value raises on this flop? You likely have a small value range here which means A8ss is probably outside of your raising range. If youre raising A8ss, where does it end? All NFD? Seems aggro.

    Also you got punished for disregarding spr. It happens to the best of us, and it happens to me as well.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Axs can be a fold with shorter stacks. 100bb+ its fine to flat preflop even without range advantage. This is made up by playing in position.

    In a heads up game when btn raises are you folding A8s in the BB? Probably not or your over folding.

    @wikki im not raising all nfd but most that have bdsd equity as well. Also if the cbet was larger I am more likely to flat. There is not a huge value range that is repped by raising this flop i understand that. Q9s, 99, 33, and rest is mostly fd. Maybe 1 combo of QQ as ranges are more polarized in 3 bet pots as stacks get deeper.

    People fold preflop with A8s because they are not comfortable playing postflop without a made hand. A8s becomes a fold preflop if you are playing hit to win. For the more studied players A8s is a call preflop, somes a 3 bet preflop depending on the player your against and your postflop plan.

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