Bailed Out by the Flop

SliverOverlordSliverOverlord Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
edited December 2017 in Online Poker Hands
Hey Red Chippers,

I recently played a hand on Global Poker and I would like some feedback on the line. Two quick notes on my play: I occasionally limp reraise random hands from UTG. I find that people give this play WAYYY too much credit, and don't pick up on how I don't ever limp AA... Occasionally meaning almost never, but once in a while. A second note: I have been doing some experiments with overbetting turns to see how people react and how I work it into my own game.

Here is the hand. I'm going to refrain from posting my thoughts on the hand for now, I'd just like to see what people have to say about this very odd line. It may seem very fishy at first but I think there is some redeeming logic.

Full Ring Global Poker 50NL

Hero UTG 83.63 Limp :Qs :4s
Folds...
BU (19.35) Limp
SB (62.50) Complete
BB (52.70) Check

Flop ($2) :QC: :4c :2S:
Check to Hero
Hero bet 3$
Folds to BB
Call $3

Turn (8$) :5D:

BB Check
Hero bet $13
BB Call $13

River (34$) :7H:

BB Bet 20$
Hero Allin 39.22$
BB call 19.22$

Thanks for your thoughts!

Comments

  • CubanBCubanB Red Chipper Posts: 104 ✭✭
    It looks like you got limped with garbage and got lucky twice - you made a big hand on the flop, and someone else made a decent enough hand to look you up. You've given no reads on any opponents so it's impossible to assess whether your plan to limp-reraise or your overbet is any good. Without info about your opponents, I think this looks pretty ugly from start to finish.

    I also take issue with your plan to limp reraise "random" hands. If this is something you feel compelled to do, you should have a limp-reraising range with specific hands in mind so you have your frequencies under control. Otherwise, if you're limp reraising Q4 suited, whyy not Q3 suited, or K2 suited, or J5 suited? Why not any hand at all?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with @CubanB about having a range of hands in mind to balance your limping frequency.

    Balancing your AA, kk, AK, and A2s-A5s as an example for a limp reraise range.

    When your limping UTG full ring your inviting 6 other players to come in who have position on you.

    Postflop on flop and turn are fine. You found a sucka who wants to pay a premium with his draw. The river i don't like shoving against someone who called two over bets then comes alive on the river and donk bets into you. I can't think of many hands in his range that you beat giving he donk bet 2\3 pot into you. Also being in the BB villains range is uncapped. He can have some 7c2c type hands that you beat, but vs over bets i think he is likely to check call 3 streets. I was thinking straights like 6c3c but he can raise that on the turn....8c6c makes sense for a double gut + fd on the turn that leads river.

    Overall your playing bingo preflop without balancing your play. Postflop good job on the flop and turn going for max value after you flop a monster. River i would just flat.
  • Yanming ZYanming Z Red Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    Your line seems fine. The river should have just been a flat, the raise here is hard to get called by worse. You rep strength the whole way, especially it’s the turn over bet. Yet the V bets into you on the river. Raise here folds out all bluffs, and there are plenty of sets, straights or better 2p that can call you.
  • SliverOverlordSliverOverlord Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    Thank you for your responses.

    I would like to start by addressing pre flop:

    Limp re-raising UTG is a play that I found to print money on a lot of micro-low stakes online, and live tables.

    Let me explain further. I see a lot of guys do this live and online. They limp reraise AA, maybe KK, and a majority of TAGs and LAGs alike, overfold to it. “Oh he has Aces, and I have to fold”. These “ace trappers” are not approaching this spot in any sense of balance, and allow most people the opportunity to make an exploitative fold. When I’ve witnessed this play, I tried deconstructing the mental process behind each player’s decision, and decided to add a very exploitative aspect to my game, and take advantage of my opponents overfolding.

    @Austin & @CubanB Both of you brought up how when I make this play, I’m likely going to be incredibly imbalanced. I agree, and don’t see a reason to adjust. My opponents, the players who I am targeting with this play, are the auto-piloting LAGs and TAGs. They are exploitatively over folding against a perceived tight range, and probably won’t ever see a showdown to realize their assumptions are wrong. At games where the competition is tougher, this play wouldn’t work as well as It does.

    Yes, in practice it is good to have some balance to your plays, but this assumes that your opponents will have that same balanced approach. As good poker players, we should be looking for spots like this were we can pick up an easy 4-5bb (Maybe If were lucky we can get an Iso, a couple cold calls and then jam, making this play HUGELY profitable)

    Something I would like to reiterate from my original post: I don’t make this play EVERY time I can. Then people will catch on. However once every 500 hands or so, I think my table image and the table dynamics are right, I will go for it. J5s? Sure. K3s? Sure. I tend to try to stick to suited hands, but that is a personal preference. I like to See my play as maybe 3-5% of the time I have Q4s or 1-2% when I have J3s... A small percentage of the time I pick up each of these holdings, so I don't overuse this play and allow it to lose it's credibility.

    @Austin My limping decision is not to "play bingo" and to hope to hit. I am limping with the intention to trap a TAG or LAG. I may not get a bite 100% of the time, and if I don't, I'm going to have to play pretty fit or fold on the flop, but by my logic, the profitability of when I am given this opportunity to reraise is more than profitable enough to justify the play.

    I welcome any criticism or critiques on flaws in my logic, I am sure there are some.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you for your responses.

    I would like to start by addressing pre flop:

    Limp re-raising UTG is a play that I found to print money on a lot of micro-low stakes online, and live tables.

    Let me explain further. I see a lot of guys do this live and online. They limp reraise AA, maybe KK, and a majority of TAGs and LAGs alike, overfold to it. “Oh he has Aces, and I have to fold”. These “ace trappers” are not approaching this spot in any sense of balance, and allow most people the opportunity to make an exploitative fold. When I’ve witnessed this play, I tried deconstructing the mental process behind each player’s decision, and decided to add a very exploitative aspect to my game, and take advantage of my opponents overfolding.

    @Austin & @CubanB Both of you brought up how when I make this play, I’m likely going to be incredibly imbalanced. I agree, and don’t see a reason to adjust. My opponents, the players who I am targeting with this play, are the auto-piloting LAGs and TAGs. They are exploitatively over folding against a perceived tight range, and probably won’t ever see a showdown to realize their assumptions are wrong. At games where the competition is tougher, this play wouldn’t work as well as It does.

    Yes, in practice it is good to have some balance to your plays, but this assumes that your opponents will have that same balanced approach. As good poker players, we should be looking for spots like this were we can pick up an easy 4-5bb (Maybe If were lucky we can get an Iso, a couple cold calls and then jam, making this play HUGELY profitable)

    Something I would like to reiterate from my original post: I don’t make this play EVERY time I can. Then people will catch on. However once every 500 hands or so, I think my table image and the table dynamics are right, I will go for it. J5s? Sure. K3s? Sure. I tend to try to stick to suited hands, but that is a personal preference. I like to See my play as maybe 3-5% of the time I have Q4s or 1-2% when I have J3s... A small percentage of the time I pick up each of these holdings, so I don't overuse this play and allow it to lose it's credibility.

    @Austin My limping decision is not to "play bingo" and to hope to hit. I am limping with the intention to trap a TAG or LAG. I may not get a bite 100% of the time, and if I don't, I'm going to have to play pretty fit or fold on the flop, but by my logic, the profitability of when I am given this opportunity to reraise is more than profitable enough to justify the play.

    I welcome any criticism or critiques on flaws in my logic, I am sure there are some.

    You don't need a balance range of 50% value and 50% bluffs, but you should be at the very least using blockers when making this play. Just study some of the combos and you will reap the rewards of your thoughts. I've done this before and i make this play as well. Few months ago I had Q9s UTG in a 1\3 game and table was full of fish and I was trying to play a lot of pots against them. Q9s is usually a fold for me but table wasn't over aggro. I decided to make it $6 (2bb) and go to a multiway flop with 4 or 5 other fish, but what happened was my $6 was raised to$20 and another person 4 bet to 60. It didn't feel right as this player had been active recently and his AA and KK prior he always min 3 bet. I figured he had JJ or AK and i shoved over the top trying to pick up $100 in dead money. Both players ended up calling me, MP AA, SB had KK. Flop JTK and my hand held and i looked like a maniac which was great for my image going forward. Some times it works out but look at that example using blockers.

    Both villains can have 6 combos of AA or KK each. If we limp utg with AK and "trap" a tag as you say who tries to iso with his TT at least you knock the combos in half to 3 combos each reducing the chance they call by 50% with AA or KK.

    You have to remember if I iso you with AA and you limp 3 bet then im going to flat and let you barrel as you won't make enough hands. Ill put you on kk or QQ since im holding AA and let you give me your money. Thats why i like using blockers. As others have pointed out just having suited cards are not enough of a reason since your betting dark and cards in your strategy don't matter. You can have a huge bluff frequency and still make this work.

    A2-AKs for example (4 combos each = 48 combos)
    aa = 6 combos
    Kk = 6 combos
    If you want to use Kxs thats another 48 combos.

    You can have a 48\6 ratio or a 8:1 it simple terms and be bluffing 80%+ as long as you have hands with ok equity and block some of their get it in range.

    I think you have the theory part down, just not the math or range behind it.

    Also i would advise against using the word "trap" with two random suited hands against a tight range. For most people they would assume trap meaning you have the best hand which is not the case. You can use something like Exploit their tendecy of over folding to limp reraise.

    Keep us updated.
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    OK, keep doing and keep printing money when you flop big. Keep doing with garbage hands because they are sooooooted .. haha haha . That's why you choose Q4s instead Q4o? But I'm telling something even better: You can print money with any two cards. ATC can make two straight flushes. Any single card Ten of higher can make a Royal like even T2o can make the Royal and another straight-flush with the wheel.

    Keep doing ... LOL lol haha

    You're not contributing and you didn't read his post trying to clarify his thoughts.
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    @Austin some hands of course will be better to make a purely expolitative play like this than other hands. It's not a mistake to attempt the play without a blocker because having a blocker raises our EV some. If the game dynamics are perfect for this type of move, we can't decide to wait for our combos to show up. When we decide a range to make this play with (I'd probably create something like A2o-A5o, right card is a spade, K4s-K5s diamonds only) and we look down at that hand UTG but know the situation with the players behind isn't right, we should deviate from our own strategy.

    Playing situations is more important than creating static ranges. I know that's not quite what you're advocating for, but when we know the spot is super ripe with weak TAGs and look down at J2s, we should probably still make the play. Assuming of course we've proofed that it's profitable with ATC which @SliverOverlord believes.

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