Going from Online to Live difficulties

Steve WSteve W Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
What's up Red chippers! I have played online and have been occasionally playing live. I have been working on my goals for 2018. I methodically write my poker goals and track for each year. My goal for 2018 is that I can play 30 hours a month or more in live games and study toward being a winning player to where I can move up to 2-5nl live. I have withdrawn most of my roll from online- ignition and have reached my goal of 150k of hands strickly in 10nl and I turned a profit from it. 3.25bb/100 hands.

My live experience has been a very small sample and even those samples is when I have a couple of buyins and play live, i go so it's not playing well my A game mostly for I am not properly rolled in the game. I have had break even, losing most of all with a couple of nice sessions in the mix but it's rare that I come home with a big pot of money as I looked at results.

I came here to RCP to be able to really work on the live games where it seems that the focus is in the live setting. I love playing live but it's challenging for me but willing to put in the time and effort to get through this for I feel that if I am rolled correctly, I get through the hurtles which is just a slight learning curve and my efforts up to this point working on my game, I can make a real go at being most profitable at playing live 2-5 as maybe a regular down the road and ultimately hit my milestone goal to peak at the game with a good winrate that I can supersede my income full time at work.

Here are the things I want to ask the community for tips and tricks of the live setting.

1. I am not good at reading stacked chips. I know this will come with experience. I do know that it's best to stack chips 20 high and so your 1-20 5-100 and 25-500 so that is in there. So i am alright in the 1-2 games but struggle in tournament live play as of course more chips at play.
2. I am not the most extroverted person in the world. I definately not a chatty person at the table. I am not a sports nut as TV's are on throughout a poker table and chattieness seems to be around sports and sport betting and the like. I do pick up on the action that people are giving each other at the table etc but it's not what I enjoy.
3. I have a hard time with taking notes at the table. I usually have so much information blown at me that I simply don't remember one hand to the next. I am going to try different apps on my pone and seem to be doing ok with the Analytics 4 which does well for me but in discussion of live hands, I simply am all messed up by the time the hand is done and really remembering the aciton throughout the hand that I am actually involved with.

Thanks in advance for anyone to help me with your tips and tricks at the table. The goal for me in 2018 is to play more live and tick number one on the list is get comfortable with my style of play. Not be results oriented, make every decision with the best I can give to the poker at the time and really take the time off the table to really work on the game.
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Comments

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭✭
    Run well in your venture at the live tables! As a heads-up, there are other threads about jumping to live tables for the first time if you want more general discussions. As to your questions:

    1) Don't worry about this one. Really. Don't. It just comes from practice. Most people stack their chips in piles of 20 (at $100); that's easy enough. Some will stack them at $150 or $200; some at any random number; some where each stack is entirely random. Just ask the dealer, "Could I get a count of Seat 4's chips?" Note, by the way, that the dealer can NOT then count Seat 4's chips. But, Seat 4 DOES have an obligation to present chips so that you can know the amount. Worst case, take a few seconds staring at the stack(s) to assess how much is there. It is very rare that someone will deliberately do everything possible to throw you off their stack size. As you play more, you'll more naturally be able to glance at stacks and estimate stack size. One final note: If a player makes a bet by shoving in any amount of chips, you may then ask for an exact count, and the dealer will do that.

    2) Being quiet and being rude are two different things. You can be on the quiet side and not be rude. Just act in a way that's most comfortable for you. Another thing not to worry about!

    3) Simplify this, too. Take out your cell, text yourself to email yourself quickly a couple of notes (e.g., raise 10 (stack 200), call (350), me (175) call on BUT; flop KsTs5d; check, bet 20, fold, fold). You can come up with short-hands as you go. Don't worry about putting into a program or software or anything like that. You can then reconstruct the hand when you get home and have more time and focus.

    In short, and I don't mean to dismiss your questions -- sorry if it comes off that way!! -- just relax and don't worry about these things. With some time and experience at the table, they'll all become second nature. As you start, just be yourself, do your best, and you'll figure out which need some concentrated effort to improve and which will get there naturally by osmosis.
  • Steve WSteve W Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    i didn't take it at all that you dismissed my questions. I do appreciate the candidness though. It's a step in the right direction for me to venture into live. I am learning a lot playing and learning what other players are doing as well.

    At least I have gotten the actual jitters part of live away so that is progress. I used to shake when I am playing and I thought I'd never get that done. It's totally gone now and more relaxed. I will eventually get there, I am sure.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 887 ✭✭✭
    I had the same problems you had when I first started. So I thought I might give you a few things that helped me.

    I always had some social anxiety, and I'm shy, but poker been great for it. I started out shaking all the time. As you said it passed, what helped me was reading an article where the guy said if you shake when you have big hands and shake when your bluffing, don't worry about it. Once I realized that I was able to relax and just shake some times.

    As far as talking at the table, I mostly just copy players, or get cute lines from TV shows or movies. Over time, I see what people find funny and what they don't and adapted to being quiet a lot, with a few cute lines. I don't like sports, so I can't even talk about that, but will sometimes tell players I willing to fake it, "All the rangers need is a good left handed pitcher" . But over time I've gotten very comfortable and have been pretty well accepted as a regular.

    As far as note taking I pretty much use Johnathan Little's system

    http://jonathanlittlepoker.com/how-i-take-notes-at-the-poker-table/

    with a few adaptions.

    But I don't worry about suites......ss in my notes means suited did not effect me, ff means flopped a draw......bb means backdoor draw. type thing. I don't worry very much about the ranks of cards that are not Broadway, unless they connected. And If i get it a little wrong I don't care.

    Hand records look like this
    Ab Q HJ 200 (means I had AQ with an Ace for a backdoor draw)

    E M .15. BB M (ealry player and mid limped in I made it 15 and . got called by the big blind and mid player)

    Kxx b (flop was K and two smaller cards, no straight draws (that I . remember, and one gave me the backdoor draw)

    M10 40 M (Mid donked 10, I made it 40 mid callied)

    Xb (a ow card that game me the backdoor draw...)

    60 M (I bet 60 mid raised me to 200)

    Q

    CK CK (river checked through

    I practice taking notes by watching play videos, stopping them after each hand, and writing them down. If they are playing 4 tables just considerate on one table. After a while it becomes pretty easy... I try to copy over my notes onto my computer each evening (while I can fill in any details I might remember)...or at least at the end of the trip when I get home.

    As far as chip stacks....just get a general idea, who has you covered, who's very short....who's a bit short..............If your deep whos very deep with you, most decision at 1-2 or 2-5 live rarely make much difference if they have170 or 220 stack... But it is important to relise the BB only has 40 left.






  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    if it may seem overwhelming it's because it really can be.
    (although it doesn't have to be)
    there is much to observe and figure out and absorb.

    one of the best "tricks" that worked for me was having WPT's Vince Van Patton announce the game in my head... "Seat 4 opens to 12 from middle position. He's got about 230 behind. He's been aggressive and Seat 5 looks like he wants to go over the top!..."

    of course, my VVP is always messing up the play-calling in my head (and making excuses for it! ha ha) but the more you do it, the more "natural" it becomes. If you follow every hand like that, you'll even begin to predict things like "Seat 5 should definitely bet the turn since Seat 4 checked twice. A bet of around 35 should do it...." which in turn will make you become more comfortable with bet sizes and what they mean live.

    there is a lot of information to absorb when playing live.
    When you become an "active" player by watching everything - you will see that it's not as hard as it seems.
    but the more you observe and take notice - the easier it will become - and the more you'll start to figure out what you need to pay attention to and what you can ignore or save for later.

    you also might want to do a forum search and check out older posts like: How to think at the table for insights that have been expressed before.

    (you'll also find a group of posts & answers about note taking under the Note Taking tag)
    GL
  • Steve WSteve W Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    ....., from online- ignition and have reached my goal of 150k of hands strickly in 10nl and I turned a profit from it. 3.25bb/100 hands.

    Sorry to say but 3.25bb/100 is not enough to beat any game. However, even with a perfect play in the hardest and toughest games, a result of 3.25/100 is insignificant. I would say that to beat the live games for some money worth the effort and work involved would be on average 20bb/100. If you can't do that, the standard deviation/variance will knock your bankroll down at some point and be out of business.

    I never said I was beating the game nor crushing the game. I have a long way to go. I am having a hard time finding the construction of what you are saying to me that helps me with this issue. Would you expand a bit more please? I know there are some nuggets there but just not seeing it.

    i can only say that as I understand as I read it, you are saying, not worth the effort unless I am at an average of 20bb/100? Are you saying that if I am 3.25bb/100, then I should not make effort? I guess I should just quit poker? Sorry but I love poker too much to just hang up. Am I reading you right?
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 390 ✭✭✭
    Stephen, it's ok to look a gift horse in the mouth.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    ....., from online- ignition and have reached my goal of 150k of hands strickly in 10nl and I turned a profit from it. 3.25bb/100 hands.

    Sorry to say but 3.25bb/100 is not enough to beat any game. However, even with a perfect play in the hardest and toughest games, a result of 3.25/100 is insignificant.

    3bb\100 is a solid winrate online considering most people are losing players.

    Live is more of 3-10bb\hr so 9-30bb\100.

  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    ....., from online- ignition and have reached my goal of 150k of hands strickly in 10nl and I turned a profit from it. 3.25bb/100 hands.

    Sorry to say but 3.25bb/100 is not enough to beat any game. However, even with a perfect play in the hardest and toughest games, a result of 3.25/100 is insignificant. I would say that to beat the live games for some money worth the effort and work involved would be on average 20bb/100. If you can't do that, the standard deviation/variance will knock your bankroll down at some point and be out of business.

    His stats, by the very definition of them, show that he is beating that stake level.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Octavian I wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Octavian I wrote: »
    ....., from online- ignition and have reached my goal of 150k of hands strickly in 10nl and I turned a profit from it. 3.25bb/100 hands.

    Sorry to say but 3.25bb/100 is not enough to beat any game. However, even with a perfect play in the hardest and toughest games, a result of 3.25/100 is insignificant. I would say that to beat the live games for some money worth the effort and work involved would be on average 20bb/100. If you can't do that, the standard deviation/variance will knock your bankroll down at some point and be out of business.

    His stats, by the very definition of them, show that he is beating that stake level.

    Yes, he's beating that level for a minuscule amount. In order to survive you got to beat the game for at lest 20bigbets/100 or 40BBlinds/100 or 13BBlinds/hour or $25/hour in a 1-2 NL game. ..., Are you listening to me?

    Unless you have an unlimited bankroll and keep playing to break even and have fun, you will not survive if the bankroll doesn't grows substantially overtime. That's why not spending the winning is key to stay in business. In live NL it comes to be around 10-12BBlinds/hour or /33hands, on average of course. And to do that you need to win without a showdown much much more then in your showdowns. The goddamned showdowns tend to even out with very little deviations. A 51% vs. 49% showdown ration doesn't secure a winning session or even a winning month or year. The no-show to show should be 2.5x or even more. The no-showdown is the bedrock of a winning player. Trying to make hands and get to showdown is nor a winning mentality.

    David Sklansky has proved in his Theory of Poker (TOP) that this is the case and there's no way around this. If you don't get that 2.5x no-show/show index you are bumping into a mathematical wall.

    I don't need to listen to you. I'm just pointing out once again that you have no idea what you're talking about. First he isn't beating the game and now he is? You say 20bb/hands is the minimum which is ridiculous and further proves that you post without knowing what you're talking about. Very few players accomplish that it and it's usually on their way to quickly moving up to the next level. Show me any significant sample size where someone other than an elite player is averaging 20bb/100 online. I'll wait.

    You speak as if his skill level can't improve and he's stuck grinding 10NL for the rest of his poker playing days. The vast majority of players that play online are losing players and he's beating his stake level...but here you are, being unnecessarily critical of a winning player.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    @Ninjah

    Nobody's talking to you or paying any attention who you are @Ninjah
    Study Sklansky's work from TOP before babbling nonsense. That's why the vast majority of you guys are mostly losers. That's why 95% of people trying to play this game are losers. Again, the score has got to be about 10-12 big-blinds per hour or per 33 hands in live games in order to be considered a winning player. Else, you're a video game specialist that become a player by studying Google and YouTube.

    I don't even think you understand what TOP stands for or who David Sklansky is.

    Never thought I'd see the day where an incoherent nincompoop accused me of being the one who is babbling nonsense. You truly are a party of one.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    ....., from online- ignition and have reached my goal of 150k of hands strickly in 10nl and I turned a profit from it. 3.25bb/100 hands.

    Sorry to say but 3.25bb/100 is not enough to beat any game. However, even with a perfect play in the hardest and toughest games, a result of 3.25/100 is insignificant. I would say that to beat the live games for some money worth the effort and work involved would be on average 20bb/100. If you can't do that, the standard deviation/variance will knock your bankroll down at some point and be out of business.

    I never said I was beating the game nor crushing the game. I have a long way to go. I am having a hard time finding the construction of what you are saying to me that helps me with this issue. Would you expand a bit more please? I know there are some nuggets there but just not seeing it.

    i can only say that as I understand as I read it, you are saying, not worth the effort unless I am at an average of 20bb/100? Are you saying that if I am 3.25bb/100, then I should not make effort? I guess I should just quit poker? Sorry but I love poker too much to just hang up. Am I reading you right?

    You've posting a positive winrate over a significant sample size which is something that most players aren't able to accomplish so you are definitely doing some things right. If you can get comfortable with live play, the skill level is about the same as you've already faced.

    However, if you are considering moving up in stakes online, I would recommend either getting a regular coach or paying one to look over your database to address any potential leaks that you may have as you would likely struggle at 25NL without tweaks to your game.
  • Steve WSteve W Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Octavian I wrote: »
    ....., from online- ignition and have reached my goal of 150k of hands strickly in 10nl and I turned a profit from it. 3.25bb/100 hands.

    Sorry to say but 3.25bb/100 is not enough to beat any game. However, even with a perfect play in the hardest and toughest games, a result of 3.25/100 is insignificant. I would say that to beat the live games for some money worth the effort and work involved would be on average 20bb/100. If you can't do that, the standard deviation/variance will knock your bankroll down at some point and be out of business.

    His stats, by the very definition of them, show that he is beating that stake level.

    Octavian, this is a great construction of what you are saying and I actually do dig it. The point I assume you are making is that I should continue to work on the game online at 10nl and make it at minimum of 20bb/100 and then move to the 1/2 nl setting? You are saying that for bankroll purposes? Am I correct in my assumption?

    Ninjah... My goal for the 2018 is still under development and my first step of coming to Red Chip. I am coming from Upswing Poker to here as I feel this is a better fit for me. I am a new learning poker player as I had been playing the game since pre black friday. I do desire coaching and trying to find the right fit.

    I came from playing really bad to holding my own in the games I am in. I feel i am in the right mind to learn and grow. CHECK bankroll management is good, CHECK I can accept constructive criticism. One of the biggest leaks I have seen in poker players is just being humble. Never chalk up the game as oh it's variance, there is room for everyone to grow in their game. CHECK.

    Octavian, I just am trying to find the construction in the criticism there and appreciate you making more clarity to the reply to my OP. I dig it and have taken note.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭✭
    The worst part about transitioning to the live setting will be running a bluff with 6 high and waiting for your opponent to make a decision. At home, you can yell "Fold! Fold!" at the screen, and nobody will ever know. However, in the live setting, you have to sit there and deal with the agony.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Octavian I wrote: »
    I don't even think you understand what TOP stands for or who David Sklansky is.

    While one can argue that TOP was an important book in "poker history" you might want to check out some books and other resources from this century that are more updated and relevant to NLH.

    The best scientific mathematical work on poker by a professional player.
    There's no book that even come close to a mile

    I don't really want to bash Sklansky and Miller since they both helped me learn to beat LHE back in the day. That said neither of them are "professional NLH players", and Mathematics of Poker is way more of a "scientific mathematical work on poker".

    But more important than which book(s) are updated and relevant - are all the other resources available to players today.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    The best scientific mathematical work on poker by a professional player.
    There's no book that even come close to a mile to the TOP. All the poker book that you find at Amazon or 2+2 or anywhere, all are trash



  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Octavian sources are 2+2, play money, and poker books from two decades ago.

    To say your a losing player because your not 10bb+ per hour LoL.

    Yes, on the play money tables a person may win 20bb\100 but in real money games 3-10bb\100 is about max. Live as stated before is 3-10bb\100 with the exception of @Faustovaldez123 with 15bb\hr.

    Stick to giving play money players advice. Please post your own loser graph of beating the game for 20bb+ lmao
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Octavian I wrote: »
    The best scientific mathematical work on poker by a professional player.
    There's no book that even come close to a mile to the TOP. All the poker book that you find at Amazon or 2+2 or anywhere, all are trash



    I wanna post this on all of his post. A player that has 9 out of 10 disagree with most of his post and yet still considers himself a student of the game.
  • ragin_cajunragin_cajun Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Steve W --

    All this win rate discussion misses the mark because none of us here really know how the live games play in your cardroom. 1/3 NLHE where I play is a table of 10 kids with $1,000 plus stacks at night, and a table of 10 retirees with $150 stacks at 10AM on Tuesdays. My win rate in those two very different games is very different.

    Your question about chattiness at the tables, not being extroverted. NOT a problem. Just keep watching the players, what they say, who's good and who's not. Study all these people intensely. What they say, what they do, how they play, what changes the way they play. What info THEY think is important (even if you know it's not). What tactics do they use? Can they cope with stress over several hours? You don't have to talk too much at all.

    I listen WAY more than I talk in a card room. I only talk to encourage others to tell me what they think--that's what I want to hear. Just ask a question here and there, get people talking, and listen. Take it all in. Ask them about what you want to hear, so they'll quit jabbering on about sports. LOL I like to ask them about other players. "Have you played with that guy over there before?"

    Your note taking -- nobody can tell you how to do that. Your notes is shorthand you develop on your own, because it makes sense to you later. What you want to see in your notes will change later, too. Just start doing it alot, you'll get real good at it after a while.

    Combining these 2 things together -- when I'm playing cards, I'll ask people stuff just to see what they tell me.....and I listen to them as long as the info is good....and when they start babbling on beyond what I want to know.......I look down at my phone and start tapping in notes. If I play a hand, after I stack the chips I won, to avoid the questions I don't want to answer from others "did you have the flush?" "Top pair, or set?" -- I start tapping notes about the hand in my phone and answer with "my wife is blowing up my phone again. I HATE when she does that".

    So, use your phone to take notes, AND to help you manage conversations with the other players. LOVE my phone.

    See? This is why live poker is SOOOO much better than online.

    And don't forget to chat up the cocktail waitresses.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 701 ✭✭
    You're allowed to have and access your smart phone at the tables? Does this not open the door to software abuse and collusion?
  • ragin_cajunragin_cajun Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Absolutely. You can't actually talk on your phone while you have a hand. But you can have a phone in the poker room, at the table, take a phone call at the table between hands.

    There are vlogs on youtube where poker players video hands in Las Vegas casino's and post them to youtube.
  • ragin_cajunragin_cajun Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Lotta players at the table are watching movies on their smartphone while they play, with headphones on. Or watching whatever game they want to see that the casino can't get on the big screen TV for some reason.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 546 ✭✭✭
    I remember when i bought TOP. In great anticipation i walked up to the register at barnes and noble and put the book on the counter. The lady at the counter picked up the book, shook her head, and said “you know this stuff is bs right? This cant help you win.” If only she knew how damn smart that statement really was.

    I would donate my copy to goodwill but i dont want some poor, naieve sap reading it. Oh well, im going camping soon and ill need some firewood.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Octavian I wrote: »
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    I remember when i bought TOP. In great anticipation i walked up to the register at barnes and noble and put the book on the counter. The lady at the counter picked up the book, shook her head, and said “you know this stuff is bs right? This cant help you win.” If only she knew how damn smart that statement really was.

    I would donate my copy to goodwill but i dont want some poor, naieve sap reading it. Oh well, im going camping soon and ill need some firewood.

    Well, in that case use all your books for firewood and learn from YouTube or Google .

    If everything else is trash, why are you on this site? Were all losers right? You should quit the site and go read your book again. You are obviously the best player here with a 20bb+ win rate per hour. Come back and visit us after a year and maybe we will be on your level.
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