Flat or 4b a 3b?

Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 418 ✭✭✭
edited May 2015 in Live Poker Hands
1/2 350 effective

Kk in the CO straddle from MP (it's the wild Wild West of poker rooms you can straddle anywhere) I raise to 25 (Straddler has been calling pre all night) and EP 3 bets to 100. Everyone folds to me. EP is pretty tight this far. In my experience at 1/2 it's pretty much QQ+ and maybe ak. I could flat and call/shove pretty much any flop.

Or should I 4b shove?

Flatting seems to keeps his lower pp in tact when he shoves a low board whereas he will probably fold qq to a 4b.

Comments

  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Ok so i am trying to understand this so far, but EP isn't the straddler right? So how did he enter the pot? Was he the BB or SB?

    --

    Assuming EP is the BB and MP folds to 3bet:

    I like a flat here alot because if villian 3bet range is pretty much premium then you can get QQ to barrell off on a good board with him thinking he is ahead here alot of the times & AK combos to probably put in at least a cbet.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 418 ✭✭✭
    I know it's confusing because in this room you can straddle from anywhere unless someone in a worse position wishes to straddle as well.

    MP straddled so action starts after him.

    Folds to me in the CO. I bet, folds to EP who cold 3bets. MP folds, and it's on me.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    That makes the dynamic different.
    You still have position though so my mind stays the same i like flatting. However i was thinking about it in terms of raising because of stack sizes but if your confident that villian folds out everything besides AA/KK then flatting is great here.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A flat is a fine play and well justified, but it's more about how you want to deploy in a larger, strategic sense than one option or the other being superior. In such a perfect spot you get to decide if you want to create a four betting dynamic, in addition to the usual benefits of not letting QQ/JJ/TT off the hook on certain flops or allowing them to realize their equity untested and unknown to you. I would prefer a four bet, without going into much detail, because it helps you play a more aggressive game overall, assuming you back it up later. It does sound like it is possibly a small room that you play in, with regs, and that definitely tips the scales for me if true. The other thing is, this is an absurdly bloated pot because of the straddle and sizings, with villain having put in nearly a third of effective stacks already: he doesn't have to fold QQ/JJ every time... and nor should he if you have already created the right dynamic.
  • ArtArtBobartArtArtBobart Red Chipper Posts: 330 ✭✭
    If you flat, you have a pot of slightly more than $200 with $250 behind, roughly a pot size bet. That's why I robotically ship it pre-flop. In the games I play, if someone 3-bets me, they never fold to a 4-bet. That said, I 3-bet light all the time :)
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 418 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote:
    In such a perfect spot you get to decide if you want to create a four betting dynamic... I would prefer a four bet, without going into much detail, because it helps you play a more aggressive game overall, assuming you back it up later... The other thing is, this is an absurdly bloated pot because of the straddle and sizings, with villain having put in nearly a third of effective stacks already: he doesn't have to fold QQ/JJ every time... and nor should he if you have already created the right dynamic.

    Interesting. Thinking about my future image is something I have not given much thought to, mostly because I play in the Philly area and rotate casinos. However those 8 other players will definitely remember a 4 bet pot simply because they happen so infrequently in 1/2. And yeah, I had been aggressively isolating the loose straddler all night so I def had a LAG image at this particular table.

    What if I am relatively unknown to villain and haven't had a chance to build any dynamic yet? You think he is calling a 4b with JJ,QQ? I see that from certain types of 1/2 players but not from tight ones.

    Rello and bob, thanks for posting as well. As played I flatted.
    Does anybody have different experiences with 1/2? I dont have a big sample size yet.
  • ChipTraderChipTrader Red Chipper Posts: 178
    Wiki_Leaks wrote:

    Flatting seems to keeps his lower pp in tact when he shoves a low board whereas he will probably fold qq to a 4b.

    KK is always hard in a 3 bet pot but I think you sort of answered your own question.
    Why have him fold one of the hands QQ your way ahead of ?

    Easy Flat
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @wl, if you think he's just a poker tourist or you're the visitor and will never see him again, flat; if you suspect you'll be dealing with this guy a lot, what better hand to start 4 betting with... after all, I'm suggesting that you'll have to do it with worse to be a dangerous preflop player. At 1/2 flatting is going to be great because handreading is not strong overall... but it's never too soon to be thinking ahead.