Getting value from A10 with an AKx board (no info).

Lennon GLennon G Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
PokerStars Hand #180020799863: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2017/12/25 14:13:07 WET [2017/12/25 9:13:07 ET]
Table 'Ilos' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: kordiks1972 ($2 in chips)
Seat 3: LennonGreen9 ($3.93 in chips)
Seat 4: DeniaEbashit ($2.59 in chips)
Seat 6: mil3k ($2.08 in chips)
DeniaEbashit: posts small blind $0.01
mil3k: posts big blind $0.02
SnaxTop: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to LennonGreen9 [Tc Ad]
kordiks1972: folds
LennonGreen9: raises $0.04 to $0.06
DeniaEbashit: folds
mil3k: raises $0.14 to $0.20
LennonGreen9: calls $0.14
*** FLOP *** [As Ks 6h]
mil3k: bets $0.20
LennonGreen9: calls $0.20
*** TURN *** [As Ks 6h] [2c]
mil3k: checks
LennonGreen9: checks
*** RIVER *** [As Ks 6h 2c] [4c]
mil3k: checks
LennonGreen9: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mil3k: shows [Kd Qd] (a pair of Kings)
LennonGreen9: shows [Tc Ad] (a pair of Aces)
LennonGreen9 collected $0.78 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.81 | Rake $0.03
Board [As Ks 6h 2c 4c]
Seat 2: kordiks1972 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: LennonGreen9 (button) showed [Tc Ad] and won ($0.78) with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: DeniaEbashit (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: mil3k (big blind) showed [Kd Qd] and lost with a pair of Kings


So in this hand, I open raised from the button with 3 bigs with :AD::TC: against someone I have no information on. Small blind folds and BB 3-bets me to 3.3x my bet. I wanted to take position on him so I called.

Flop shows :AS::KS::6H: which obviously gave me top pair, however, it opened up flush draws that I didn't have, broadway straight draws, and a grave potential for me to get outkickered with my AT. I didn't think he'd have AK since I'd like to think he'd 4-bet that preflop, but AQ/AJ was a concern. I didn't want to get off my hand but I also didn't feel to confident with it. He c-bets, I call (I didn't want to raise since I didn't want the pot to get too big).

Turn card comes :2C: - which, literally, if you look in the poker dictionary, this image is shown when you look for the word 'brick'. Anyway, my mind pre-flop when I called the 3-bet was 'get yourself to showdown as cheaply as possible', hence my chronic limping and my check-down when he checked to me. I'm *really* not sure if this was the right attitude to have, since, y'know, what's the point of calling a 3-bet if you're going to shit the bed post-flop - however, I didn't feel like I'd be getting called by gutshots/16% flush draws if I bet on the turn, so I felt as though any call would've been goodnight Vienna to my showdown equity. I'm thinking that perhaps a small bet on the turn for value would've sufficed - maybe 1/4 of the pot would've been called by 2nd pair/FD/gutshot.

River card comes :4C: which actually features next to the deuce of clubs in the poker dictionary of a brick card. The pot was 40bbs, the same as it was post-flop, and the guy checked to me. Similarly to the turn card, I felt like I had decent showdown value but I felt like the nature of my hand meant I was getting called by top-pair-better-kicker or two pairs, so I didn't bet. Again, there's this feeling that I left a lot of money on the table since I'm very inexperienced and my judgement could be very different. Anyway, villian has :KD::QD: and I take the pot down with my top pair.

I'm looking for information from both perspectives, and how you would've played the hand from both my point of view and villian's point of view. Did I get good value? How could I have improved value? Would you have called if I bet the turn?

Thank you so much in advance. Any input would be much appreciated!

Len.

Answers

  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    Lennon G wrote: »
    I didn't think he'd have AK since I'd like to think he'd 4-bet that preflop, but AQ/AJ was a concern.
    You opened the Btn; he 3-bet from BB; you called: he had no a ability to 4-bet, so his range is uncapped including AA/KK/AK/AQs. He wouldn’t be the 4-bettor anyway, he would be the 5-bettor if you re-raised him.
    :Jd:Tc
  • Lennon GLennon G Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    Ah! That was an oversight on my depart! Yes, of course, and that, I suppose, further justifies my reluctance to persure betting post-flop.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    Well raising AT from the btn..great play.

    You got 3 bet....ATo against a 3 bet range is horrible. Maybe if you think he 3 bets light it might work well as a 4 bet bluff....It has blockers, otherwise, most of the time, just fold.

    Ok you called he cbet...well I guess you have to call once now...thats about it. If your not beat you are getting virtually no more value. Its not that your not better then some of his range....your better then virtually none of his range that will call another bet.

    Don't worry about him having flush draws....He 3 bet...the Ace and King of the suit is came out....not many 3 bet suited hands don't include the the Ace or King of the suit.
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Value depends on the psychology of your opponent, and if you don’t know the opponent then you play against how the field plays—unless the field demands risky play(at low limits it doesn’t), then you might want some personal history anyway before running big bluffs/big call downs/super-thin value.

    Once you know this player you can start betting 2/3-3/4 pot on River to try to get him to bluff-catch you; realize that dynamic, that when you value bet, you need to represent a bluff or a value hand worse than his. Here you are repping a missed flush draw or broadway straight draw OTR.
    I would actually not even wait against the online field I play against, since it’s a common environment for people to make River bluffs like that, so my opponent can expect it from me since he doesn’t know me yet either.
    Also players I play against don’t slowplay strong hands on drawy boards like this AND they don’t check-raise bluff the River. So I will either get a fold from hands I beat, or I will get someone to bluff-catch me with worse.

    Also, know that it’s fine to value bet and get called by a hand better than yours(AJ, if he tries to induce a bluff with it OTR), as long as you beat more hands that call your bet, than hands that beat you that call your bet(A2s-A9s/KQ-KJ/99).

    Here’s a video to watch:

    :Jd:Tc
  • Martin DMartin D Red Chipper Posts: 79 ✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Bet river after he misses his second bet. Occasionally you'll run into a nit with AQ but mostly you should be good.

    I'd bet small, maybe 40%, but I'm not sure on the sizing and would welcome input.
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Concerning preflop, in the field I play against, these 3-bets from the blinds are too strong to call. It shouldn’t be:
    These players should be 3-betting you lite for opening the button lite(if you are doing that, which your ATo indicates, as you should also open even wider than this, especially if no one is challenging your blind steals with lite 3-bets), and thus you can then call with ATo since you are still ahead of his re-steal hands.

    Watch players when you are not in the hand to know if you can call in a spot like this.

    This player had KQ, which means he wanted to punish you for opening with steals(if you are) and get dominated hands into a lower SPR pot (KJ/KT/K9s/K8s/QJ/QT), to make getting stacks in, feasible, against those hands, on favorable runouts. Many players are not doing this with KQ, so take note of this player and make observations about the field as time goes on.
    :Jd:Tc
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Welcome to the forum BTW
  • Lennon GLennon G Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    Eazzy wrote: »
    Well raising AT from the btn..great play.

    You got 3 bet....ATo against a 3 bet range is horrible. Maybe if you think he 3 bets light it might work well as a 4 bet bluff....It has blockers, otherwise, most of the time, just fold.

    Ok you called he cbet...well I guess you have to call once now...thats about it. If your not beat you are getting virtually no more value. Its not that your not better then some of his range....your better then virtually none of his range that will call another bet.

    Don't worry about him having flush draws....He 3 bet...the Ace and King of the suit is came out....not many 3 bet suited hands don't include the the Ace or King of the suit.

    I see! That's really insightful and has helped me a lot - thanks. Just to clarify a couple things then, would you have recommended me not call the ATo from the 3bet? Also, how would you (or anyone else) have reacted had you faced a bet on the brick turn/river? Thanks!
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭✭
    @Lennon G
    I think you've lost 1 to 1.5 street of value.

    Except if Villain is tricky (we can't know, no info) or tight passive, the turn check is strongly capping his range. Stinks like a "bet-fold" line with a small A, KX or a medium PP. Good point is: you've more FD and gutshot than him (=more draws to the nuts), as his 3-bet range may not have med FD or weak-ish gutshot (like QTo).

    If so, you can bet a lot. In fact, I'd bet almost always, as I expect this spot to be an autoprofit spot for my bluff (=I've to bet to protect my bluffs). Betting turn and/or river. Bet sizing would be a great deal to focus on as well - depending on what do you try to realize, and your targeted range.

    Good hand to dig deep into your betting and checking back ranges, both on T and R.

    Now, use Flopzilla/Equilab/other and do you homeworks ! :)

    This player had KQ, which means he wanted to punish you for opening with steals(if you are) and get dominated hands into a lower SPR pot (KJ/KT/K9s/K8s/QJ/QT), to make getting stacks in, feasible, against those hands, on favorable runouts. Many players are not doing this with KQ, so take note of this player and make observations about the field as time goes on.
    I'm no online player, but I'd tend to disagree. We are playing online (more aggro), 6 max (more loose/aggro) and esp. 4 handed. I expect many 3-bet here, aka with much wider than JJ+/AK/AQs (top condensed range)
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    *Edit: I’m drowsy this morning...*
    The field I play against online(Ignition $0.02/$0.05), which is very tight/passive preflop with random spazzes, and weak post with some river bluffs.

    I don’t know how $0.01/$0.02 on Pokerstars plays, but generally, microstakes are not known as tough games.
    :Jd:Tc
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭✭
    I just disagree about the tight range you may give Villain.
    Again, I'm no online player, but Villain having KQs here isn't surprising at all imho.

    But I guess it comes from our different play experiences. In my games (live, full ring), KQs is often in the 3-bet range. So 4 handed and BB v. BU, I expect almost a 20% 3-bet range, where KQs presents like a value hand (=top of the range).
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Yeah, I just can’t get away from weak games. No one 3-bets KQ(except me) in any game I play in live or online.

    Live, I have be very judicious about my 3-bets because players are not open-raising wide at all. It’s hard to run into something worse than AQ/AJs in someone’s open range. Everything else is limped.

    But I can catch when players start playing more correctly, and then I start 3-betting them. Crazy how rare it is though.

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