# Turn Decision versus a Shove

Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
in CORE
\$0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players

BTN: \$5.54
SB: \$8.55
BB: \$4.00
Hero (UTG): \$8.19
UTG+1: \$5.15
MP: \$5.00
MP+1: \$3.98
CO: \$5.76

SB posts SB \$0.02, BB posts BB \$0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: \$0.07) Hero has

Hero raises to \$0.20, fold, fold, fold, CO calls \$0.20, BTN raises to \$0.82, fold, fold, Hero calls \$0.62, fold

Flop: (\$1.91, 2 players)

Hero checks, BTN bets \$1.00, Hero calls \$1.00

Turn: (\$3.91, 2 players)

Hero checks, BTN bets \$3.72 and is all-in, Hero ???

My analysis:
Villain's 3-bet pre flop range is fairly tight so I gave him a 5% 3-bet range.
So i make it a +EV call pre flop.

On the Flop
I figure he c/bets here a lot of the time but I don't see a reason to narrow his 3/bet pre flop range so i believe it's +EV to call.

Turn:
This is where I'm confused.

Any thoughts?

• Red Chipper Posts: 73 ✭✭
Do we have any information on villain?

I think your PF bet size is quite big - what's your rationale for that rather than using 3x? Villain then goes ahead and 3bets quite big in my point of view. Do you expect him to have a bluffing range in this spot? I have little experience in playing 8-handed, but I'm thinking JJ is already pretty thing considering you'll play OOP, the raising size and the reverse implied pot odds.

The flop is the best you could hope for (other than flops containing a J...) and the call is probably fine. On the turn, I would probably find the fold - he might have an occasional AK here, but at NL5 you will run into AA-QQ at a very high frequency.
• Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
Eurocrat wrote: »
Do we have any information on villain?
No info on villain. Just sat down.
Eurocrat wrote: »
Do we have any information on villain?

I think your PF bet size is quite big - what's your rationale for that rather than using 3x?
I always bet 4x from EP with an open raising hand.
• Las VegasPosts: 4,928 -
edited May 2020
So it seems on the turn, with an overpair, we don't like this spot, which casts a shadow on the flop check-call, which in turn brings into question the preflop call.
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• Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭
edited May 2020
Pajoryan wrote: »

I always bet 4x from EP with an open raising hand.

Why?

• Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
edited May 2020
TheGameKat wrote: »
So it seems on the turn, with an overpair, we don't like this spot, which casts a shadow on the flop check-call, which in turn brings into question the preflop call.

Why does it cast a shadow on the flop call?
• Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
NTD12 wrote: »
Pajoryan wrote: »

I always bet 4x from EP with an open raising hand.

Why?

Why not?
I open raise 4x from EP and 3x from MP, CO and Btn.
Is this a radical deviation from 3x and 2x as recommended in CORE?
• Las VegasPosts: 4,928 -
Pajoryan wrote: »
TheGameKat wrote: »
So it seems on the turn, with an overpair, we don't like this spot, which casts a shadow on the flop check-call, which in turn brings into question the flop call.

Why does it cast a shadow on the flop call?

You need to know precisely that V will one-and-done bet with overcards, otherwise you're calling the flop to fold the turn.
Moderation In Moderation
• Las VegasPosts: 4,928 -
Pajoryan wrote: »
NTD12 wrote: »
Pajoryan wrote: »

I always bet 4x from EP with an open raising hand.

Why?

Why not?
I open raise 4x from EP and 3x from MP, CO and Btn.
Is this a radical deviation from 3x and 2x as recommended in CORE?

I think the point is, there should be a reason for your sizing. For online 4x is huge.
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• Red Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
I think as played, the turn should be a fold. Villian's line suggests we're up against a range that continues with AA - QQ, TT and AK. I don't see too many other hands which make a whole lot of sense here and he's definitely slanted towards made hands in this spot (so basically anything other than AK). The real decision point in the hand was your flatting OOP against the 3-bet. I would rather play a 4-bet here, with the intention to fold against the 5-bet all-in. Playing JJ OOP against an uncapped range is a nightmare. If an A,K, or Q comes on the flop, we know we're likely behind. If it's all undercards (as it was), we still have to consider an overpair against the C-bet. When we just flat pre-flop against a 3-bet range and we're OOP, we're really only set-mining. 4-bet pre is a better line with JJ IMO.
• Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
TheGameKat wrote: »
Pajoryan wrote: »
NTD12 wrote: »
Pajoryan wrote: »

I always bet 4x from EP with an open raising hand.

Why?

Why not?
I open raise 4x from EP and 3x from MP, CO and Btn.
Is this a radical deviation from 3x and 2x as recommended in CORE?

I think the point is, there should be a reason for your sizing. For online 4x is huge.

I don't disagree. However 2x seems tiny.
• Las VegasPosts: 4,928 -
I've never felt comfortable min-raising, but imagine the following hypothetical. Whenever you open for the min, the BB always defends. You then have a 55% chance of winning the pot.

I think the next bit of a thought experiment is: if the BB always calls 2x, do they also always call 2.25x? 2.5x?

Following a similar process, what is the most likely outcome of opening 4x?
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• Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
wescro wrote: »
The real decision point in the hand was your flatting OOP against the 3-bet. I would rather play a 4-bet here, with the intention to fold against the 5-bet all-in. Playing JJ OOP against an uncapped range is a nightmare.

Good point.
I didn't consider this line at all.