A-Q in multiway pot

KemahPhilKemahPhil Red Chipper Posts: 108 ✭✭
edited September 2015 in Live Poker Hands
Playing 2-5. I'm in the BB and have AsQc. There are two limpers then a really wild player(who's also drunk) in mid pos raised to 25. The button (TAG) calls. It comes back around to me and I call. The player to my left, who has only 65 moves allin. The original raiser calls then the button raises allin to 240. The original raiser has about 200 left and I have them all covered.

Should I call?

Comments

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a bit of a tricky spot, mostly because of the TAG button I think. It's not clear what he has. Normally in a situation like this, the button will have a hand like :7? :7? . That's certainly possible here, but another possibility is :Q? :Q?+, where the button was trapping the wild player, hoping to use the wild player's aggression against him postflop. He could normally think the blinds will fold here. However given that there were 2 limpers, I think the button could also expect multiple calls, in which case flatting the button might not be a good idea. I think a TAG button would 3-bet :A? :K? in this spot. So I probably go back to thinking the button is trying to isolate with a medium-ish pair as the most likely idea. AQ, AJs type hands are also possible.

    The UTG player probably has something weakish, but anyway he doesn't really matter much. The wild player could have anything, so most likely you and the button are chopping up most of the equity. You only really need something around 25-30% equity here to call, and I think you should easily have that in the long run. This is true whether the original raiser calls or not (it's hard to know if you want him to call, but it's probably close.)
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    3bet preflop solves your problem
  • jimbo123jimbo123 Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    I'd rather squeeze the drunk player preflop, if the TAG's trapping with AA-QQ then good for him.
  • KemahPhilKemahPhil Red Chipper Posts: 108 ✭✭
    Not sure what this means:

    "3bet preflop solves your problem"

    Also I forgot to mention one other significant fact. The drunk has been talking non-stop the entire session. After I had tanked for about 30 seconds trying to make a decision, he started ragging on me to make the call. He had done this before in the session sometimes when he had the hand and others when he didn't.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    KemahPhil wrote:
    Not sure what this means:

    "3bet preflop solves your problem"

    It won't necessarily solve your problem, but he's saying if you're the aggressor yourself it's sometimes better than being the one who calls. Squeezing them from the start was another option for playing the hand that might have picked up free cash without a fight. Then again, you can't be sure.
  • KemahPhilKemahPhil Red Chipper Posts: 108 ✭✭
    "It won't necessarily solve your problem, but he's saying if you're the aggressor yourself it's sometimes better than being the one who calls. Squeezing them from the start was another option for playing the hand that might have picked up free cash without a fight. Then again, you can't be sure."

    If the suggestion was to 3-bet with A-Q out of position before the flop, that's not something I would do very often. I might have done it if it was only the wild man but, with a TAG calling from the button, that doesn't seem to me to be the right move.

    In any case, here's what actually happened:

    As I said earlier, the original raiser was egging me on to call. Although he had done this previously on a bluff, something about the way he was acting told me he had a real hand so I folded. He then flipped over AK, the button flipped over 8-8 and the UTG player turned over 6-6.

    Based in these actual hands, I made a good fold. I was congratulating myself for this move when the flop showed Q-4-2. The turn was another Q and the river was another 4 :-(

    Doing the right thing at the wrong time doesn't work as well as doing the wrong thing at the right time :)
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    I think you should more seriously consider the 3-bet pre-flop. Whenever one of the RCP founders/coaches chimes in I think we should all take note and investigate further.

    For me this is a mandatory 3-bet/squeeze per-flop. The only time I wouldn't is if OR was UTG and was older than me with hair coming out of his/her ears. The fact you're OOP only wants to make me do it more and do it BIG. I would have made this $125. A full understanding of Stack To Pot Ratio (SPR) is also necessary

    Brokos recent video is good on 3-bet and the other RCP guys have some great ones too
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    KemahPhil wrote:
    If the suggestion was to 3-bet with A-Q out of position before the flop, that's not something I would do very often. I might have done it if it was only the wild man but, with a TAG calling from the button, that doesn't seem to me to be the right move.

    It's the TAG (just) calling from the button that makes it a good option!

    So basically UTG and the button both had exactly what we thought they might have, and the wild man had something that he wasn't folding and happened to be at the very top of his range. The UTG player made a somewhat reasonable play - wasn't horrible because he's just gambling by putting in 25% of the chips. There are many situations where he will actually have about 25% equity here. In this case it turns out he only had about 17%.

    The button didn't make a bad play - again fairly reasonable and what we'd expect him to have. He was clearly trying to isolate the wild man while putting dead money in the pot (which he accomplished.) Note that it was your flat call that emboldened him to do this. And in fact he scooped a nice pot in a hand where he had more equity than anyone.

    The only "wild card" was the "wild man". Again, you have to use ranges to solve problems like these. The wild man is going to have a huge range here, and you have his range crushed. Like I said before, UTG doesn't really matter to the big stacks much. If you had been able to get the button to fold (which is very reasonable to expect he would if you had put in a big raise preflop), then all that equity would have gone to you, in a hand where you're just as likely to see :Js:Ts or :Ah:Xh from the wild man as :A? :K? (in fact, probably more likely). Even if for some reason you get called in both spots, give wild man a reasonable range and your equity skies to over 33%. Combine this with the dead money in the pot and/or fold equity, and you are golden my friend. (I left UTG out of the picture because it really complicates things, him having such a small stack, but the idea is the same.)

    By the way, when raising from the blinds in a situation like this, you want to usually raise more than normal. sullyooo's idea of $125 sounds about right. This is to induce folds and reduce your positional disadvantage (i.e. you are still in bad position, but it's more likely you'll get folds so you will actually play fewer hands in that position because it ends preflop.) You maximize your preflop positional advantage and reduce your postflop positional disadvantage.
  • theClubbertheClubber Red Chipper Posts: 167 ✭✭
    Pre flop. AQ is one of those hands that's great against a random hand, a favorite against most played hands and terrible against premium hands.

    How likely is anyone to have a premium? The presence of the crazy LAGtard caps the button's range. The guy seems to be generally happy to give action and anyone else at the table should notice this. To me this should discourage button from slow play.

    It's unlikely you're up against a premium hand, you should be welll ahead of the maniacs range and you can guarantee you will see the river, negating the buttons positional advantage.

    After the back raise you can correct your initial mistake of flat calling. Ship and pray!
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    KemahPhil wrote:
    Based in these actual hands, I made a good fold. I was congratulating myself for this move when the flop showed Q-4-2. The turn was another Q and the river was another 4 :-(

    By the way, you can't have it both ways :) You can't say you made a good fold once you see their hands, unless you're also willing to say you made a bad fold once you see the board. You have to make decisions based on hand ranges, not on which specific hand they had within that range.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    "If the suggestion was to 3-bet with A-Q out of position before the flop, that's not something I would do very often. I might have done it if it was only the wild man but, with a TAG calling from the button, that doesn't seem to me to be the right move." - KemahPhil

    Hey man,
    I just wanna say that AQ is a really good hand in this game. You should consider looking at it as such.
    And if a 3Bet preflop picks up all the dead money without a fight here, that's a win for you.
    In this spot, the fact that you are OOP should possibly lean you more towards a 3Bet rather than not.

    I challenge you to take a hard look at your pre-flop strategies, and post here if you have any questions.

    Good Luck.
  • KemahPhilKemahPhil Red Chipper Posts: 108 ✭✭
    The actual situation is often different than theory. I understand what you guys are saying based on general theory but in this particular game, if I make the raise to 125 preflop, I know that the wild man is calling no matter what two cards he has (in this particular situation, he would probably shove). If he calls, then there's also a good possibility the button will call. If there is no A or Q on the flop, what do I do then?
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    If he isnt folding any two, then your 3bet is for fat value.
    The TAG on the BU won't always call behind because he's a TAG and TAGs fold.
    Once post- you make decisions based on boards.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    And if the TAG calls $125 you can bet your bottom dollar he has a bunch of pairs in his range and is set mining in the wrong place. Let's say you had 2 callers. You could bet $150-$175 on any flop and get more than your 33% folds. Remember you have Aces and they don't (most of the time :) )
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    KemahPhil wrote:
    in this particular game, if I make the raise to 125 preflop, I know that the wild man is calling no matter what two cards he has

    That's fantastic.
    KemahPhil wrote:
    If he calls, then there's also a good possibility the button will call.

    I don't think so. You can't set mine for $125, I don't care who you are. The math doesn't support it.
    KemahPhil wrote:
    If there is no A or Q on the flop, what do I do then?

    Bet big on any flop and don't spend your money all in one place :-)
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 441 ✭✭✭
    KemahPhil wrote:
    "It won't necessarily solve your problem, but he's saying if you're the aggressor yourself it's sometimes better than being the one who calls. Squeezing them from the start was another option for playing the hand that might have picked up free cash without a fight. Then again, you can't be sure."

    If the suggestion was to 3-bet with A-Q out of position before the flop, that's not something I would do very often. I might have done it if it was only the wild man but, with a TAG calling from the button, that doesn't seem to me to be the right move.

    One thing I've learned (the hard way) with AQ is you put yourself in trouble spots when you just call a raise. Since joining this forum, and listening to Split Suit and Soto, aggression wins. Not to beat a dead horse, but I believe what Soto was saying is if you would have squeezed the SPR would have made your decision easier. You would of continued to play out your hand and seen a flop. When you watch Split's videos he constantly reiterates how he would of bet a little more in a certain situation that way your decisions won't be so difficult as you continue with the hand. In this particular situation I know you look down at AQ and think really? So now you should be either raising or folding, but not calling. I have been such a chicken to play AQ aggressively in those types of situations. But I have been 3 betting the heck out of it and winning more pots both pre and post. I appreciate you posting this hand. Not a comfortable situation to be in. Since I'm not as experienced a player as most on this forum I like to see how in tune (or not) my decisions are with others. :)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You got it Jules: 3 betting AQ is the way and the truth.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,838 -
    KemahPhil wrote:
    The actual situation is often different than theory. I understand what you guys are saying based on general theory but in this particular game, if I make the raise to 125 preflop, I know that the wild man is calling no matter what two cards he has (in this particular situation, he would probably shove). If he calls, then there's also a good possibility the button will call. If there is no A or Q on the flop, what do I do then?

    Let's review this. You have a loonie who will call a 3b with anything, thus with AQ you have his range crushed. You're worried about the button who you describe as a TAG. Such a player will widen their range in order to play against the loonie. Typically I would expect a TAG to isolate with the top of their range, so by only calling they are capping their range and will likely fold when a sensible player such as yourself throws out a 3b. If it turns out they are getting tricky and flatting their full range including premiums there, it simply doesn't matter, because premiums make up a tiny fraction of their widened range, and they will fold most of it to your 3b, leaving you up against the loonie.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    I agree that this is an easy 3-bet. Nobody has shown any strength. The "strongest" moves so far are the TAG player calling and the drunk guy raising. Again, that's pretty weak, and I really like my AQ against the range of hands they (and the limpers) are likely to have.

    Just calling will not keep you out of awkward spots. You found yourself in one when you called and there was a lot of action after your call. There are a lot of other awkward situations that can come up. Suppose you flop an ace or queen in a multiway pot (and the pot is multiway because you didn't 3-bet PF). You're often going to be in awkward spots, even when you hit your hand and being out of position makes those spots even more awkward.

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