Top pair + nut flush draw in 3-bet multiway pot

The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 783 ✭✭✭
The title of the thread was going to be "How do I extract value here ?" but after analysis I think I'm not sure there was any to extract.

Both villains appear to be typical NL10 tight multi tablers (i.e.. regs). Only ~25 hands on each, haven't seen any showdowns. No obvious game flow dynamics.


Cassava Poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 2854878
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

CO: $9.41
BTN: $13.42
SB: $10.00
Hero (BB): $8.94
UTG: $7.00
UTG+1: $10.61
UTG+2: $9.74
MP1: $10.86
MP2: $11.89

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with A :heart: K :club:
3 folds, MP1 raises to $0.28, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.81, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.71, MP1 calls $0.53

Maybe I should raise ? In these games, 3-betting is mostly premiums apart from resteal spots. I've only ever seen a handful of 3-bet bluffs. I never cold 4 bet. If I did I guess a reasonable range would be something like:
KK+, AKs, AKo, A5s
I assume I shouldn't be bluffing a lot here.

If MP1 opens something like:
22+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, AJo+, KQo

Then I assume they call with
33+, AJs+, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, AKo
Given stack depth and relative position. Not sure If he'd raise KK+ ?

I put CO on something like:
TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+, A5s
Probably tighter

Flop: ($2.48) 8 :heart: K :heart: 9 :heart: (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets $1.86, Hero calls $1.86, MP1 folds

I don't raise because I don't want to push MP1 out. In retrospect, he probably only calls with kings or better (AA, KK, AK, KQs) and flush draws and straight draws, in which case I assume a raise is probably a good idea with the intention of getting it in if someone re-raises. However, not sure what CO C-bets 3 ways that I beat. Clearly something though.

Turn: ($6.20) 6 :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Maybe I should be leading here ?

If CO bets, I was shoving over the top to try to get a free-roll from other AK (6 combos). I am behind KK (1 combo) and AA (3 combos), but have outs.

River: ($6.20) A :club: (2 players)
Hero bets $6.27, CO folds

The river shove was trying to look like I'd missed my flush draw (at the microstakes I find the river shove gets called way too often), but in retrospect the only flush draw I'd call would be Ah which made a pair on the river. I wouldn't be pushing any other AK or AQ. So, the only calls I am getting are likely to be AA, other AK for a chop, or maybe AQh.

Final Pot: $6.20
Hero mucks A :heart: K :club:
Hero wins $5.89
(Rake: $0.31)


So... should I have bet/raised at any earlier point in the hand ?
Was a better line to either check-call the river, or bet small to get a call out of QQh type hands ?

Thanks.

Comments

  • PierrickPierrick Red Chipper Posts: 13
    Hello,
    I would 4bet AK OOP here 100% of the time; i would call like you on the flop, I would check on the turn as well (why leading? It would make no sense). Since Hero checked the turn, he is unlikely to have a heart in his hand, he is even less likely to have a K because he would have bet to protect against the flush. The river is a brick and your bet is too big. I would only bet 1/3 pot here, maybe you could get a hero call from A2s/A5s. But it is unlikely if they are weak tight 3 bettors. So a check might be best to induce a small bluff from them since your line would be kind of weak as well.
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 783 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Pierrick, that all seems sensible.

    I think my "try to look like a bluff by shoving the river" will only work when I have the betting lead (works great when a back door draw comes in); without it the line looks more like "I slow played a monster and am now desperately trying to get value". I like a small bet better than a check, I think he's checking behind JJ and QQ, but might call 1/4 pot with these hands.

    In retrospect I think flat calling a 3-bet with AK out of position and not closing the action is horrible, my range is so transparent (unless I am a horrible player, which could be argued) that there is no way I can get more money in good, particularly multiway. I assume if the MP re-raises it's an easy fold; if the cutoff reraises I probably also fold, regs don't 5-bet bluff at NL10.
  • ElandraelElandrael Red Chipper Posts: 23
    Hello colldav,

    I would have 4bet preflop OOP, but sometimes you want to call with AKo HU if villain have a big tendency to cbet and to plan to raise the cbet with your top range a big portion of the time to make his raise + cbet line -EV. But since this is a 3 way I would prefer to raise, like Pierrick suggested.

    So once you have the lead, you keep it and getting value is easier > Bet / Bet / Bet ;-)

    For whatever reason, when I want to get the lead back I don't hesitate to donk or to check / raise (2.5 to 2.7x time his bet) - you keep the draws you dominate and the TP lower kicker, and PP like QQ and maybe JJ with one heart. SPR wise it's better because you can stack in river easy with 90bb.


  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 783 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Elandrael. I usually 4bet AK OOP, and just call IP. The multiway thing threw me, but I assume it's even more reason to 4 bet.

    If I cold 4 bet here with the range mentioned above (KK+, AK, A5s) then is the AK for value or as a bluff ? Is anyone really going to call a cold 4-bet with AQ or worse at this stack depth ? Maybe suited I guess ? So is this really just a bluff with excellent blockers ?

    Also, If I do 4-bet, let's assume MP folds and CO calls. My standard play would be to check-call, given the SPR - I don't think I'm ahead of 50% of his calling range, given my range looks (and is) so strong. I think I am more likely to get called on the turn. With my range I would:

    Bet AA no heart, KK, AK no heart
    Check-call AhA, AhK, Ah5h

    Is that reasonable ?
  • ElandraelElandrael Red Chipper Posts: 23
    edited February 2016
    AKo is for value (52% on a 10% strong range equity pre can't be a bluffing hand ;)) I think there is a lot of PP like QQ, JJ, TT and sometimes an A you dominate in his 3bet range VS a raise of Mid1. This is a good spot for value IMHO.

    After the flop in a HU situation I would play, with a plan of barreling 90% / and check 10% because our range should be strong there. I will go for a 50% pot bet with intention to shove turn with the remaining. If we did 4bet around 2,5 or 2,7 his 3bet (8BB) we will have an SPR of roughly 1,5 pot bet or close. Regarding stack size a shove on the flop, can be as good as 50% bet if you know your opponent can pay you with QxQh or JxJh. or KxQh, in case he got AK, it's a free roll which is good.

    ---

    To answer your question
    colldav wrote: »
    Bet AA no heart, KK, AK no heart
    Check-call AhA, AhK, Ah5h

    Is that reasonable ?
    We need to define the 4 bet range in SB - I would go for something like that (QQ+,AQs+,AKo) => 38 combos

    *note that Ah5h isn't in that range but you can add AQs and QQ.

    With the Kh on the board this leave 31 combos.

    So if you want a balanced plan to check / call and to bet I would go with :

    Check / call : AhA, AhKx, AhQh, QQ (11 combos)
    Bet : AA, KK, AK without heart and AhQx (20 combos)

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