Is this a terrible fold?

ChoppiesChoppies Red Chipper Posts: 4
Hey guys.
Recently I played a hand late in a local tournament that's really been bugging me.
I'm oop against a loose player to my left (played with him a few times before). He's been shoving all in a lot but seems to be running well and showing up with the best hand.
I raise 3bb pre with pocket queens, he 3 bets, table folds, I call. I know a 4 bet here is very possible but am happy to let him bluff on the flop if it isn't too dangerous.
Flop comes As - 10s - 4c. I check, he shoves all In About pot sized. It's about 30% of my stack. I fold.
he shows pocket 9s.
I Don't want to be folding my pocket pair every time there is an over, but then again I also don't want to be paying off any ace just because I have queens and feel they are too good to fold.
Opinions would be great. Cheers.

Answers

  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭✭
    Feel like QQ is an automatic 4bet/shove pre, especially vs a LAG and even more so late in a tourney. He probably would have called a stack off pre. As played, I may convince myself to call anyway knowing he's a LAG and losing the hand isn't crippling.
  • dirty moosedirty moose Red Chipper Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    With that information, it's not the worst fold I am the world. How close to the money were you? There's a few other needed details.

    In the end it was probably close either way.
  • dirty moosedirty moose Red Chipper Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    With that information, it's not the worst fold I am the world. How close to the money were you? There's a few other needed details.

    In the end it was probably close either way.
  • kytmagickytmagic Red Chipper Posts: 204 ✭✭
    What's your stack size? Too lazy to trace back what your stack size is by your comment that the bet was 30% of your stack. Too much missing information for me to answer.

    As a default, I am 4-betting getting it in.
  • blasterblaster Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    QQ in a tourney when a known LAG 3 bets your open holding about 30% of your chips? If this isn't an auto shove i need to rethink my game i guess. I don't think it's a terrible fold on the flop, your in crystal ball territory and the villain is gonna have a pointy one tons so go ahead and release it i guess, but man i don't know how you flat pre or why you would flat pre? I would be interested in hearing your thought process behind flatting in this spot.
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    I'm happy this hand is bugging you, because that means it's not sitting right with you and I don't think it should!

    If he stacks off on the flop for a pot size bet, this money should have been in pre. Leaving him with a pot size bet after he 3 bets, while we're holding queens, is a shame. Way too shallow to get relatively tricky. He can call and be behind, or fold getting incredible odds, put him to the lose/lose decision pre!

    Can't fold flop either. Effective Spr is 1, and the jam is his only move. Yeah, sometimes he will have the ace, but in tourneys, it's generally wrong to try and make soul reads with stacks so shallow.

    How close to the money were you?
    We can't play to min cash, gotta go for the final table!
  • dirty moosedirty moose Red Chipper Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    That's fine, but at points in the tournament, we have to make icm considerations.
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    That's fine, but at points in the tournament, we have to make icm considerations.
    If we were physically on the bubble, we still aren't getting eliminated. If we say the 3 bet was min for 6 bbs, meaning we'd have about 15 BBs in the pot. The pot size shove by villain is roughly 30% of the hero's stack, making heros stack ~50 BBs. If we call and are wrong, we've gone from 50 bbs to 35 bbs, still really no where close to any critical chip stack. I could be wrong, but doesn't really seem like a spot where ICM should outweigh the situation even if we are directly on the bubble.

    As described, this lag has one round in the chamber on the flop, and is probably firing that on 80%+ of the flops. I mean, here we see them actually showing up with 3rd pair to the board, what aren't they Cbetting?
  • dirty moosedirty moose Red Chipper Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    I'm taking about it as played. I would have shipped it pre flop as well.

    But as played we're uncertain where we stand.
    I'm no icm expert, but, I think icm always matters when you're unsure of where you stand in a hand.
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    We are uncertain where we stand, but that seems like a poor reason to fold. How often do we know where we stand? Spr is one on the flop, and we are against a lag, with I'd venture to guess an exploitably high cbet %. I just personally don't see even with ICM, how this would be a long term profitable fold in this situation. I think ICM is a great tool, but it has its shortconings since it has no regard to villain tendencies, your relative skill set, or other factors.

    We can agree to disagree, it just seems like if we are folding her, we are getting exploited by the lag

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file