Set multi way pot when draw hits the turn

EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 914 ✭✭✭✭
edited December 2014 in Live Poker Hands
Playing a deep 1-2 game (100 to 500 buy in)...

V1...African American maybe played 10 hands limp folded a few already...not much read but does not seem aggressive...seems loose...little less then $200

V2...Young African American...sat down about an hour ago...hoody dark glasses...looks like he should be lagy or tagy but is not...so far calls raises pre flop a lot...but has shown almost no aggression seems to check call with draws chasing...he bought in for $500 about 350 left...I played on hand with him when he first sat down...bunch of limpers I made 17 from bb...he called flop was 456 all red...I had :As :Js so I just check he bet 20 and I folded...He constantly puts players on the most obvious hands and ask them if that what they have...guess he's trying to play well but thinks if your deep any two cards can win....

Hero...has been pretty card dead...been holding my head above water by bluffing in position a bit but in the last hour..bunch of loose players replaced tight regs so I've not been doing much...
I have about 250...

hero has :8c :8h utg + 1.....I raise to 8...V1 calls mid, V2 calls HJ. btn calls bb calls

flop 5 players 35 after rake

:6c :8c :9h

BB checks I bet $35 V1 calls V2 calls....

turn 3 players $140
:4c

I have a little over 200 left...any bet commits me... I'm ahead of their ranges..but not their calling ranges....

what the plan????

Comments

  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,636 -
    [video]
    TLDW: Check and evaluate. They are passive, their bets are more meaningful. They might bet small enough to give you odds to chase for a boat or quads.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭✭
    Not sure I agree that you are *not ahead of there calling range. As I range these opponents they have more than twice as many top pair, Two pair, lower sets, Pair+draw hands as they do made flushes on this turn. I ranged them to have called with all broadway cards, all suited aces, all pairs, and all suited connectors pre flop (about 20% of hands. If that is the case then when the 2c hits the turn they have a flush only less than 7% of the time. But, they have top pair, two pair, smaller set, Pair plus draw over 17% of the time. There are a lot of hands that continue on this turn that are not flushes. In fact, a lot more than are flushes.
    Twitter = @ChipXtractor
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,928 -
    Just to be sure, the :8c is on the flop, and NOT in our hand, right?

    I'm jamming the turn. Second best hands can call, hands like :Ac :9s and :Tc :Td and such now picked up extra equity that likely call. I'd hate if the turn went check/check/check and we give a chunk of free equity. In short, jam seems good to me
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For those of you jamming, is this because of stack size? How do you play your sets on flushing turns with deep stacks?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,928 -
    persuadeo wrote:
    For those of you jamming, is this because of stack size? How do you play your sets on flushing turns with deep stacks?

    Stack sizes make jamming here easier, yes. But I'd be betting this turn with deep stacks as well a large chunk of the time.
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,636 -
    SplitSuit wrote:
    Just to be sure, the :8c is on the flop, and NOT in our hand, right?

    I'm jamming the turn. Second best hands can call, hands like :Ac :9s and :Tc :Td and such now picked up extra equity that likely call. I'd hate if the turn went check/check/check and we give a chunk of free equity. In short, jam seems good to me

    There is a balance here that I did not mention in the video. We can often catch people making strange value bets in situations like this. For whatever reason, bad players often try to protect their hand after the scare card comes in. Essentially by checking we can pick up some weird value-own scenerios.

    The jam has merit for sure because it does not give a free card to those that can outdraw us with a single club or a straight draw. We have equity against all the made hands anyways.

    I am much more willing to let free cards roll off and often get paid in weird spots from people value-owning with hands they should be checking back. When they have true value hands, they are often betting very smaller than they should against me.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
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  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doug, yes, I often perform this check, as it at least seemingly has the benefit of not overrepping my hand as a flush so I can get one more bet on the river, but it seems that mostly the flush draw simply kills the action and the one pair hands fold the river. Trying to find a balance between continuing on the turn and not, essentially.
  • Big OwlBig Owl Red Chipper Posts: 170
    Have to agree with Split here Doug. We can't expect to get any value when our opponents are both passive. Neither is likely to make the weird protection bets and will take the free card. Shoving at least has the chance to get a call from a big draw. I think checking is good with deeper stacks,and opponents who will bet more often.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm betting through Turn but I'm sure no one is surprised with that lol.

    I agree with Split. We are still at the top of our range and our opponent has enough worse that we want to value bet and protect our hand.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,636 -
    Big Owl wrote:
    Have to agree with Split here Doug.

    I find it hard to disagree with James and Christian, for sure! It is not an exact science.

    I tend towards nittiness when OOP. Talking to my local braintrust on this hand, the answers have been all across the board from:
    • check-jam
    • jam
    • check-call
    • check-evaluate

    I think these hands that have a variety of well reasoned answers bring up the best discussion. Debating the merits of each action gives insight into other situations that are more clearly defined based on the questions asked.

    For instance, when discussing off-line someone suggested the problem was on the flop. If we overbet the pot we end up with an easier stack size decision on the turn when one of the multiple scare cards inevitably comes.

    If we have a 0.5 x Pot bet on the turn, this is easy. If we have 1.5 x Pot like we do now it is much worse as we see.

    I think I am being swayed towards the jam the turn.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • OutlierOutlier Red Chipper Posts: 158 ✭✭
    Though the overbet on the flop makes sense, I think it does so only in hindsight. If we overbet the pot on the flop, we're less likely to get callers. In this example if we bet $55 into $35 on the flop and get only one caller, the pot is $145 instead of $105. It does make the pot bigger, but not enough to get away from the awkward SPR on the turn ($190ish behind with $145 pot).
  • juror1juror1 Red Chipper Posts: 2
    of course redchip describes correct evaluation/action/assumptions/ line - I am saying expecting good players at table who know they "are no good here" is a losing strategy
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,636 -
    Juror1,

    Thank you for joining us. It is unclear what you are trying to communicate above. Can you clarify?
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭
    As played I bet Turn.

    But im CRing this spot :-)
  • Big OwlBig Owl Red Chipper Posts: 170
    I really like the idea of check raising this flop Christian, but I'd be worried with the description of these villains that the flop would check through with all their draws. But if I expected someone to almost always bet I think c/raise is perfect here.
  • goodtimesgoodtimes Red Chipper Posts: 61
    As played I bet Turn.

    But im CRing this spot :-)

    I'd like to continue the hypothetical where we take this line on the flop but the flop is checked through - effectively we're practically in the same spot as the flop except the board is worse for us now is this ch/eval/possibly jam? Passive players should give us some general info about their hand strength within their bet size. We can nullify our OOP information disadvantage as well.

    However I feel like donk leading here w/ an image that is FOS isnt terrible either. I hate to bet/fold but i doubt either of them raise this turn w/ single club hands (and probably dont raise w/ 100% of flushes), so im not exactly loving donking for that reason either as i expect a showdown if our turn bet is called.

    Im curious about this hypothetical decision tree when we whiff our c/r as far its EV in comparison to simply being the aggressor 2 streets and jamming turn.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭
    We lose value when it's checks through.

    We would bet Turn and River for pure value even on this specific Turn. And we would bet on most rivers.

    In exchange for possibly losing value when it checks through however- we help protect other portions of our range nicely.

    So I wouldn't look at the play in a vacuum and more look at your overall strategy on this board as the original raiser.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭
    [video]
    Missed a spot. Lol
  • goodtimesgoodtimes Red Chipper Posts: 61
    We lose value when it's checks through.

    We would bet Turn and River for pure value even on this specific Turn. And we would bet on most rivers.

    In exchange for possibly losing value when it checks through however- we help protect other portions of our range nicely.

    So I wouldn't look at the play in a vacuum and more look at your overall strategy on this board as the original raiser.

    Thank you! This + the thought you posed in the video are great - playing through hypotheticals in my head it really makes this hand much easier to play with this line - thumbs up emoticon
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks man! Anytime, keep the posts coming. :-)

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