questions on decision points in this hand

Benjammin Benjammin Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭

I had been playing at this table for roughly an hour and the villain in this hand had been there for about 30 minutes observing what may seem to be loose play, but really i have been catching a lot of good hands. I have been getting three bet regularly by the small blind, and having position as well i cant see a fold to his three bet pre-flop with the odds I'm getting. Thoughts on this? could i have 4-bet bluffed ? how does the bb in the pot effect the thought process behind four betting or calling? by this i mean: he probably doesn't have too strong a hand since he just called, and given the extra dead money in the pot, and the fact that our sb in this hand seems to be 3-betting me regularly (possibly a wider more exploitable range) give me more incentive to bluff and try and take the pot down, or should i be concerned that i may be shove on by the big blind. what would i do if they both called?
As played after the flop i don't see any reason for me to bet when checked to here. seems like taking the free card and trying to realize my little bit of equity is best, but i am curious to know if others might prefer a bet here, to what size, and why. i know some people would have, and i just want to know if there's a good case for it as food for thought.
The turn is the final decision point in this hand, i think. The bb, who had three bet pre, leads out for pot. I think this is pretty clearly a bluff, unless he had Ax of diamonds and had checked the flop with the intention of check raising. Maybe he thought i would bet if i had an ace myself. As i am thinking this, the original limper min-raises, and this is where i get a little lost. I cant see a real reason for him to bluff with such a small raise. Did he call a three bet with one player still behind with :7d :8d ? Wouldn't he either fold or four-bet? I think those are the only diamonds a can beat that he would have :Kd :Qd comes to mind as a hand he may play this way. Thinking that i can not get called here by a worse hand i just call and look to evaluate again on the river. Pretty certain this is a mistake. My hand is decently disguised as i think a lot of people expect a decent flush draw to raise on that flop. maybe I'm wrong about that. Nevertheless, once i decide to simply call i open myself up to making a larger mistake on the river, i think. Curious about others thoughts on this decision as it relates to an overall strategy of targeted aggression and if i could have been profitably aggressive here on the turn,
The river pairs the board and i don't truly think he has a full house here, he could, but i doubt it. I don't think he is shoving three jacks a bluff, or for value at this point. If he did somehow play top two this way, he is winning now. I just don't see what i beat here, at all. Thoughts on this are welcome, of course, but i really am interested about others thinking pre and on the turn more, because i think that the decision on the turn determines how we play the river, even if the board doesn't pair. I welcome thoughts and criticism of this thought process too.



  • AkashicAkashic Red Chipper Posts: 67 ✭✭
    For preflop, effective is 14.77, so the preflop bet is less than 5% effective stack. You are not wrong to call. If you wanted to 4-bet, I would try to put at 1/3 of the short stack in play. I would lean towards this 4-bet because the BB simply called. You said he wq s at the table for at least 30min, that is a good number of hands he has seen the SB 3-bet you (assuming he did it at least 2 times). So I would raise to about 5.0. I highly doubt he would shove given his cold call and the SB will likely leave (because 4-betting a SB who likes to 3-bet really harms that strat).

    On the flop, I don't mind checking like you did, but remember, your hand is now disguised like you said. So keeping that in mind, you (original raiser and caller) are now checking a dangerous board where most people bet, you likely have a weak holding of suited connectors, 1-gap, small pairs, lower Ax hands. It is hard to make flushes in this game, so the fact that you check almost denies you having these draws. However, you do have this discounted hand.

    The minraise on the flop is a bit odd, but it looks like a weak attempt to steal the pot. I would have raised here instead of calling, but calling is fine too because SB still gets to act. Your call looks like to a Ax of diamond hand at this point

    The J on the river really doesn't help his range. Would AJ really check on a flush board that often? I doubt it like you said. I would have called this one. He bet every scare card that came. Why would he bet the turn when the flush came in, then jam when the second J came in?
  • Nathan SNathan S Red Chipper Posts: 275 ✭✭
    Javier P wrote: »
    The J on the river really doesn't help his range. Would AJ really check on a flush board that often? I doubt it like you said. I would have called this one. He bet every scare card that came. Why would he bet the turn when the flush came in, then jam when the second J came in?

    It's possible he just has the flush there and wants to get his money in.

    I think that if you're calling the turn, you want to be calling the river here too. Either he slow played AJ, is holding some JX and wanted to see what you'd do on the flop. But I am leaning towards some KX flush here, primarily because he reraised on the turn. I think he was just jamming for value there.

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Calling the 3B pre flop is best line with a good(not great hand) for cheap, and on the BTN. In general you should 4B polarized so more like QQ+/AK and some bluff with Ax or Kx which have some blocker value. But at the micros where I suspect people are likely too passive pre flop it might be right to not even have 4B bluff range.

    Not betting the flop is a mistake as you have lots of fold equity to go along with pot equity.

    With your line I would call as even though you look super strong flatting the turn raise the pot odds are compelling and there is too much random clicking to fold such a strong hand.
  • Tim BTim B Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    edited October 2017
    I think when the SB bets on the turn he either has absolute air or KK/QQ. I don't think slow playing a set of aces or jacks on a board this connected is a great idea and I don't think a big flush would check rather than betting. So when he decision on the turn comes, I would definitely not think I am beat by the SB. Since he 3bet you pretty regularly as you said, I would definitely think that his turn bet tends to be more bluff-oriented than value-oriented. Seeing that the BB could very well have the same thought process and since you checked the flop, this min-raise can often be an attempt to steal the pot at a great price. On the other hand, I think that pockets 3s make a lot of sense for the BB since he was getting an OK-price to setmine preflop and checked the flop, so he may bet for value here not being worried of a flush since the flop checked through.
    Having considered this, I would definitely jam against the BB to fold out his equity and get value from pocket 3s (since I don't think he comes up with a higher flush here very often). However, I think jamming is highly unprofitable against the SB since he will only call with higher flushes in my opinion. Actually, min-raising the BB on the turn doesn't seem all that bad. If the SB calls us, we know he has us beat 80% of the time (at this point, there are no bluffs in his range and I think he would play sets even more rarely this way than flushes) and we can make much better decisions on the river. If the SB folds, everything should be really automatic (call a shove by the BB on the turn and on almost every river, shove river if BB calls turn and checks river).
    The way things were played, I think folding the river is fine since it is a really tough board and action to bluff for the BB and you don't beat any value hands anymore with the Jack pairing the board.

    I wanted to mainly focus on the turn and river since they were obviously the more complicated streets in this hand. However, I would always bet this flop to deny equity and since a third diamond on the board would probably give me the best hands on later streets.

    (I'm new to forum hand analysis and pretty new to poker entirely so please let me know if I'm wrong.)

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