KK Early in session

MediocreDegenerateMediocreDegenerate Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
edited August 2018 in Live Poker Hands
So playing at a local card room. The 1/2 game just opened up and everyone was still at initial buy in of $200-$300.

We are 8 handed I'm in BB with $200 and get dealt
:Kh :Kc

UTG raises to $15 and MP, CO, BTN all call and the small blind completes.

This game has given me fits because so many people call pre and then try to out poker each other.

I felt I needed to put in a big raise just get down to 1 or 2 callers.

I make it $60 to go and UTG, MP, BTN call.

Flop comes out :8d :8s :6d

I feel at the time I really over thought my line but I'm interested in seeing everyone's thoughts on my 3 bet/amount and what would your thoughts on the flop be?


  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 483 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    I would have raised bigger for sure. Now if one opponent calls you're giving the rest a great price to call behind, and as you said, you want to go heads-up or three-way.

    I'd look more in the $80-$90 ballpark.

    $60 would be my typical amount if only one player called the initial raise.

    On the flop you're never ever gonna let go of your hand and you should be getting your stack in. Pot is around $250 and you have $140 behind. I would just punt the rest in and pray to hold.
  • MediocreDegenerateMediocreDegenerate Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Yeah it was a weird situation being so early and not knowing how the table was going to play out. I mean I play with most these guys regularly but it seems their skill levels change weekly in both directions.

    I did I end up shoving and everyone folded. I was pleased at the time but after thinking more on it I felt I shoved because I did not want :Xd :Xd or Ax to draw out. Yet I dont know what reasonable amount I'm betting here to get another street of value that doesn't leave me calling off regardless of turn/river.

    I recently read the course after just getting hammered in this room and after some self reflection decided I was a big victim of "group think".

    So I basically started back at square one.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree it's somehow small. I usually look for a pot size bet, then see if I can - depending on my aim - fold for cheaper or call for more expensive.

    Shoving on the flop, considering the situation and a less than 1 SPR, is fine IMHO. Not having :KD: is nice (not blocking :DIAMOND: FD).
    But you're playing faced up so. Not bad per se, but easier for Villain to find a fold against you with any med holding they would loosely call preflop, as you say you're holding smth like ~ QQ+ no :DIAMOND: /AdKd/AdQd.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 773 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018

    It's not that you worry about the draw call (you want it and will get it most of the time) , It's that you always want to do your best to make it a mathematical mistake for the villain.

    This points out the problem with the smallish 3bet preflop. You are enticing the crowd and will end up multi-way too often. You have a heads up hand so do your best to get there IMO

    Once multiway, as we can see here because the pot gets so bloated, it is almost impossible to make it mathematically incorrect for villains to call, especially if you get an early caller, then almost any hand with equity will throw it's hat in the ring

    But SPR under1, you are in it to the bitter end. So I shove and let them figure out what to do. Let them make mistakes
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    awkward spot as usual open is $10 so a 3bet would be $30 Ip or $40 OOP vs a single opponent. Against 4 people and a $10 it would still be $70 (3x + 1 per caller). I usually cap my raise when stacks are 100bb or less around 5x. I've also heard a pro say do 3x + .5 (the raise per caller), so its $75 being $45 +7.50 per caller.

    Because effective stack is $200 the $75 is really big with only $125 behind and looks really strong. With that said I'm ok with the $60 at 30bb. Mathematically they can't set mine or really call with anything profitably at $60+.

    I will also say there is $77 in the middle when it comes around to you. There is a lot of merrit to just shoving which can look like AK and maybe they take a stand with 99-QQ or some AQs+ hands thinking you have TT.

    How would you play TT-QQ, A10s-AKs, AQo+? Seems like a good spot to shove. Mostly only have to worry about UTG with this range.
  • MediocreDegenerateMediocreDegenerate Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    @Austin I considered shoving but felt that would playing too risk averse. Thinking about it now getting 60 was more risk averse and I should have been happy getting it in there.

    The beginning of this game is difficult because by end of night the avg stack is 600-900.

    A lot of the players seem to forget that 100 bb is way different than 400bb. Or they dont care because max buy in is 300 or equal to the biggest stack. So had I been called the loser is rebuying for 400 and most the rest of table is adding chips.

    Honestly within an hr this turns into a 2/5 game but they keep it 1/2 so the must move tables will keep feeding into it.

  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 210 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    +75 with KK is a good result. Beat the rake and avoid the Ace flop with a shove. You're getting stacked anyway if AA is out there.

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