Flopped nut flush draw, how should I have played it?

ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
edited January 4 in Live Poker Hands
Hey everyone, thank you for checking it. I am confused about how to play this hand better as follow:
It's 1-3 NL. I raised :Ac :Qc $15 from UG. MP called. My stack was around $950, and the villain was $310.
The flop was: (Pot: 30)
:9c :Tc :5d
I checked, the villain bet 15. I reraised to $80.
Then the villain went to all-in(total was 295) So the pot is $405. So I needed to use $215 to call. The pot odds is around 2:1.
When he went to all in I put his range are : AT, A9, pair 5, pair 9, 9T, 98, 67(Total are 21 combos).
When I reraise, actually i was trying to let him fold, semi-bluff. But when he all-in, that made me struggling. I knew I made a mistake then put myself into a tough spot.
So, I wanna ask two question: First of all, should I just call $15? If I just call, what should I do when turn card comes? Check, fold?
And should I call his all-in?

In fact, I did call
And
Turn :Qh
River: :4s

Thanks for your help!

Comments

  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 431 ✭✭✭
    Based on your range you assigned, I count 61 combos, I would go back and double check your count there. I also think the range is a bit off. V never has TT here? While some players are going to 3 bet this, I think the average low limit player is not going to 3 bet TT with a ton of people behind.

    However, based upon the range you set, I would plug this into Flopzilla because the answer becomes really clear on the call or not on the jam.

    With the decision to call/raise the $15 bet, what are you trying to rep to V? What hands do you have in your range that raise pre flop but the elect to check this board with 2 clubs and a straight draw out there and then raise? I think I would just flat this, personally because I can't think of a hand that I would do that with. I like the x/r as a semi-bluff with the nut flush draw better when we aren't the PFR, personally. I think it's easier to sell that you make a hand when you let someone else c-bet and then raise them.

    Interested to hear what others think.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭✭
    Why c-r instead of c-bet ?
    What do you think V is stabbing with ?
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭
    I'd much rather cbet than x/r this board. Unless there's something you aren't telling us about V, your ranging is way off on what you think he may have. You x/r, a polarizing action, and he reraises you, polarizing his own range and significantly narrowing his holdings. I expect V to be very value heavy here. My range for V:

    9 combos of sets
    3 combos of T9s
    12 combos of value

    7c8c and to add some more reasonable bluffs, QdJd and 7d8d (3)

    Even if you think he'll just jam his other OESD, you're only adding an additional 4 combos to the bluffs I have above.

    Your hand plays much better merged, and cbetting this flop keeps your range as such.
  • ChibberChibber Red Chipper Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    You should look to your equity calculator and play with some ranges for the actions taken.

    You have a strong holding that can sell the realization of equity across streets. Think about this specific holding: nut flush draw, 2 over cards, and a back door straight. But also consider other hands that would fit here as well.

    Check/raising is not necessary in this spot, but since you did, it would be terrible to fold when the villain ships has/her stack.
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Based on your range you assigned, I count 61 combos, I would go back and double check your count there. I also think the range is a bit off. V never has TT here? While some players are going to 3 bet this, I think the average low limit player is not going to 3 bet TT with a ton of people behind.

    However, based upon the range you set, I would plug this into Flopzilla because the answer becomes really clear on the call or not on the jam.

    With the decision to call/raise the $15 bet, what are you trying to rep to V? What hands do you have in your range that raise pre flop but the elect to check this board with 2 clubs and a straight draw out there and then raise? I think I would just flat this, personally because I can't think of a hand that I would do that with. I like the x/r as a semi-bluff with the nut flush draw better when we aren't the PFR, personally. I think it's easier to sell that you make a hand when you let someone else c-bet and then raise them.

    Interested to hear what others think.
    I missed to count TT.
    And,I do agree with you, I shouldn’t check and raise on the flop, because I couldn’t represent anything strong hands. I didn’t have range advantages for that board too. I might just flat call is better.
    Thank you so much!
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Why c-r instead of c-bet ?
    What do you think V is stabbing with ?
    I feel like I didn't have range advantage on that board, and i was out of position. This is why i didn't C-bet. I think my logical was wrong and not consistent. If I didn't have range advantage, my opponent couldn't believe i have any strong hands. So i re-raise can't make sense
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8
    Erinning wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    Why c-r instead of c-bet ?
    What do you think V is stabbing with ?
    I feel like I didn't have range advantage on that board, and i was out of position. This is why i didn't C-bet. I think my logical was wrong and not consistent. If I didn't have range advantage, my opponent couldn't believe i have any strong hands. So i re-raise can't make sense

    If nut FD+2 overcards is too weak to cbet, how does it find its place in a c-r range which should be polarized?
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    I'd much rather cbet than x/r this board. Unless there's something you aren't telling us about V, your ranging is way off on what you think he may have. You x/r, a polarizing action, and he reraises you, polarizing his own range and significantly narrowing his holdings. I expect V to be very value heavy here. My range for V:

    9 combos of sets
    3 combos of T9s
    12 combos of value

    7c8c and to add some more reasonable bluffs, QdJd and 7d8d (3)

    Even if you think he'll just jam his other OESD, you're only adding an additional 4 combos to the bluffs I have above.

    Your hand plays much better merged, and cbetting this flop keeps your range as such.
    Thank you so much for your analysis. I totally agree with you that I should C-bet this flop rather than reraise. My hand was much more merged. His position and range both are so much better than me
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Chibber wrote: »
    You should look to your equity calculator and play with some ranges for the actions taken.

    You have a strong holding that can sell the realization of equity across streets. Think about this specific holding: nut flush draw, 2 over cards, and a back door straight. But also consider other hands that would fit here as well.

    Check/raising is not necessary in this spot, but since you did, it would be terrible to fold when the villain ships has/her stack.


    Thank you so much for your analysis. I didn't think potential hands such as back door straight. I was too rush,just wanna bluff him. That's really bad. After I called him, everything is rely on luck.
    The villain got KK that make me surprised.
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Erinning wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    Why c-r instead of c-bet ?
    What do you think V is stabbing with ?
    I feel like I didn't have range advantage on that board, and i was out of position. This is why i didn't C-bet. I think my logical was wrong and not consistent. If I didn't have range advantage, my opponent couldn't believe i have any strong hands. So i re-raise can't make sense

    If nut FD+2 overcards is too weak to cbet, how does it find its place in a c-r range which should be polarized?

    I was thinking about because i raised from UG, it seems like I have high card or high pair rather than low card. I realized I should c-bet. It's my big fault for it.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 431 ✭✭✭
    Well what hands would you open raise from UTG? Would you raise any pair? If so, you have sets in your range and pocket pairs. If you would raise some suited connectors, you can have some 9x holdings, some Tx holdings and maybe T9s two-pair combos. Your range is going to have a lot of overcards in it, too.

    So when you c-bet what worse hands might reasonably call? Well worse flush draws are going to call, certainly. You could see some worse Ax holdings call, maybe AJ or so.

    However, you're going to be behind of some calls, but this is okay too because you have a ton of outs. People are going to call with Tx, 9x, etc. So you have 9 outs to the nut flush (we can ignore that the 5c pairs the board making boats possible, I think because sets probably get raised here w/ a FD on the board in most lower limits). You also have 6 cards left in the deck to make a higher pair and in many cases, when your opponents just call a c-bet, they're going to currently just have a single pair or worse.
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Well what hands would you open raise from UTG? Would you raise any pair? If so, you have sets in your range and pocket pairs. If you would raise some suited connectors, you can have some 9x holdings, some Tx holdings and maybe T9s two-pair combos. Your range is going to have a lot of overcards in it, too.

    So when you c-bet what worse hands might reasonably call? Well worse flush draws are going to call, certainly. You could see some worse Ax holdings call, maybe AJ or so.

    However, you're going to be behind of some calls, but this is okay too because you have a ton of outs. People are going to call with Tx, 9x, etc. So you have 9 outs to the nut flush (we can ignore that the 5c pairs the board making boats possible, I think because sets probably get raised here w/ a FD on the board in most lower limits). You also have 6 cards left in the deck to make a higher pair and in many cases, when your opponents just call a c-bet, they're going to currently just have a single pair or worse.

    Thank you so much, Jordan. In fact, my range is very tight from UG. So, from the view of my opponent, I may have over pair or two over cards. After I reraised, I do realize I did a mistake because I was too rush to take that pot.
    However, I am still thinking should I C-bet on that flop or not. Because, I usually bet when I have range advantage even I have nothing. But when I don't have range advantage, i only bet 20% time. I have a question about how much should I c-bet on that board.
    The villain showed he had KK, actually I was lucky to face his kk that made me have more possibility. Unfortunately, still couldn't hit A or flush.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭✭
    Erinning wrote: »
    However, I am still thinking should I C-bet on that flop or not. Because, I usually bet when I have range advantage even I have nothing.
    If you're the preflop raiser, then on the flop you ALWAYS have the range advantage.
    There is an understanding flaw in your statement which you should dig into.

    Hint
    There is a difference between range advantage and polarized advantage
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,008 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If the preflop raiser always has RA, then it is a useless concept.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe I can be wrong, but I think that range advantage is not a very interesting concept !?

    I prefer the concept of capped range, which is pretty close (kinda reverse of RA) but brings way more information: where is the cap, and why/how is the cap.
    (And I like the concept of polarized advantage, in a slightly different approach.)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,008 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What you mean though, is the top end range advantage. Who has the nuts. A useful idea. However, it skews us to one answer in our sizing considerations.

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