Triple barreled into aces. Should i have seen this?

rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
Villian is a reg (29/23 4k hands) who seems decent. Thinking a check somewhere along here would have been OK? Over aggressive, over valued here?

iPoker - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 109.4 BB (VPIP: 19.88, PFR: 16.92, 3Bet Preflop: 6.33, Hands: 863)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 26.58, PFR: 18.99, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 79)
BTN: 148.1 BB (VPIP: 28.37, PFR: 23.16, 3Bet Preflop: 10.01, Hands: 3,965)
Hero (SB): 116.2 BB
BB: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 19.37, PFR: 15.71, 3Bet Preflop: 5.96, Hands: 591)
UTG: 70.9 BB (VPIP: 32.51, PFR: 19.21, 3Bet Preflop: 2.82, Hands: 209)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:diamond: Q:club:

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 4.5 BB, fold, BTN calls 2.5 BB

Flop: (10 BB, 2 players) T:club: 8:club: J:heart:
Hero bets 6.8 BB, BTN calls 6.8 BB

Turn: (23.6 BB, 2 players) 5:spade:
Hero bets 16 BB, BTN calls 16 BB

River: (55.6 BB, 2 players) 2:spade:
Hero bets 37.5 BB, BTN calls 37.5 BB

BTN shows A:diamond: A:heart: (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 85%, Flop 65%, Turn 80%)
Hero mucks J:diamond: Q:club: (One Pair, Jacks)
(Pre 15%, Flop 35%, Turn 20%)
BTN wins 123.4 BB


  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,385 -
    Dunno about postflop, but preflop even for online your 3b seems way too small OOP. I think postflop you need to ask what value range you're targeting and how that relates to checking a street or two or reducing bet size.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 641 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    Indeed 3bet pre is way too small, but I do like the fact that we're 3-betting polarized and QJo is a good one to do that with in my mind. OOP against a 2BB open I usually bump it up to 7-8BB.

    What range do you put villain on to call flop and turn and river expecting to be ahead 50% of the time when called on the river? I think you'll be hard-pressed to find one.

    Also don't include results :)
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    put him on a pretty wide range raising 2x from the BTN. Kind of thought maybe JT or something similar once he started calling me down with no raises. Thought it was going to come down to kickers but was obv wrong.

    definately something to think about deeper.

    If I check say the turn/ river, should i be calling similar sized bets that i made? If he shoves or makes a massive overbet i muck but i feel like I'd be good in a lot of instances here.

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A lot of polarization/merge misconceptions running around the forum this week.
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    A lot of polarization/merge misconceptions running around the forum this week.

    please elaborate
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ed/GK with his three bet KJs but being poled, here we min raise QJs and someone polarization comes up, and so many others.

    Polarization is a pricing construction which forces its middle part to fall away, as it is otherwise unprofitable. The merged aka linear construction charges less because is is the slew of top equity and lacks the bottom which inspires a large price. Deviations a la Splitsuit are just exploits.

    When you grasp that price is inseparable from range composition, you will make it to the next level. Here in level 2, we keep wondering about value bets and hands and blah blah blah and what would you do and god knows what's next.
  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 168 ✭✭
    The 3bet is tiny, as stated, Persuadeos grasp of poled/merged ranges is more than I can comprehend.
    I agree with the other posters as well.
    If I was 3 betting QJo from the SB and got called, Id assume AQ, AJ, KJ, TJ, 9T, 89,66-TT along with some gappers, 68+ to be flatting me. Getting 3 streets of value against that range seems difficult to me. Im not sure what value hands we're beating with that river lead.
    As a 3bet from oop I think we need a different plan for top pair.
    Personally, this is not in my 3bet range because QJ doesnt flop well very often. And that makes it really difficult for me to play, especially oop in a 3bet pot.
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 303 ✭✭✭
    What about checking flop?
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    At this point checking any street likely would have saved me money.

    Whats a better line here? I feel like i'd likely be calling down some streets if I checked or called any. At what point in a hand like this, facing a min pf raise/ 3-bet call from the button on a relatively dry board, do you give up on the hand?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bet sizing here makes no sense, is another way to put it. You offer the widest possible price pre, are the opposite of polarized , and then price in stronger hands post with your sizings while shutting out floats. By the river your hand is a bluff, and should check, as the only positive ev you will capture is from bluffs now.

    You need to study pricing and ranges, which are interwoven. This hand is just button clicking.
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    Makes sense.

    But at what point would one want to get away from this hand?

    Dude would likely be betting all streets, should it get called down?

    Say my 3bet was larger, he obv calls or raises/ shoves, im back in the same situation only with a fatter pot.

    Don't really like folding QJ to a btn min raise, but flatting and catching TP on the flop and I would probably think I was in even better shape.

    His button min-raise range is pretty wide, and i would expect him to continue after flop/ turn much the same as he did here with hands like AT, J9 T9 etc but maybe im wrong.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You're saying he'd betting if you called, i assume?

    Why not just continue a better story? You raise small with a wide value range and continue small, instead of turning your qj into KK.
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    Yes I'm assuming he'd be betting if I called/ checked any streets.

    Define small. All of my bets were 1/2-2/3s pot, not exactly huge.

    Wouldn't I be calling similar sized bets with TP Q Kicker most of the time? Aren't I better off to be making the bets myself?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's just no science to what you are doing. 2/3 pot is a very large bet. we can deduce this simply from seeing how many checks such a sizing is forces to have in a mixed stragegy.. You are advancing leverage very quickly; you are leaning on "standard bets", it's all very weak sauce.
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    I'd admit that this hand was not thought out completely. Certainly not at the table.

    I 3bet (too small) trying to steal a steal. Ended up catching TP Q Kicker and based on estimated range of V i figured I was in decent shape. T a brick. R a brick and thought I had decent equity.

    Certainly could have been played smarter in hindsight, especially after being called pf and two streets, but that's what hand review is all about.

    appreciate the thoughts/ criticism.

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