Should i bet to stop chase or slow play

AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
This is one of the hand I played in a home game. Our Home game, We have all kind of players. Players who play with a short stack and chase for the gutshot draws. Player who will build the pot by having a flush draw etc.

My question is not on this hand, Its more of How to handle in a situation where you have 2 pair or a set and there is obvious flush draw or straight draw in the flop.

Here is the hand
Preflop
SB $1
BB $1
Villain UTG Calls $1 ( Stack around $80)
UTG+1 Calls $1 ( Stack around 50) . This guys alway buys only for $40 and Pushes all in with top pair +. His hand selection are around any pair + , Any Suited card with A, K , Q and one gappers

Hero Cut off - :Qs:8c Call $1 ( Stack around $200). As i am a known Tight( May be Nitty player as well) wanted to see the flop using the position and plan my game after the flop.
Button Folds
No actions further

Pot around $5

Flop :8D::QC: : :3D: :

SB : Check
BB : Check
Villain : Raise $5
UTG+1: Calls $5
Hero : There is a flush draw and UTG+1 called a raise, He must have a top pair kind of hand or a flush draw or a gutter to straigh out. I want to stop everyone from the Flush chase. I was also thinking, If any one has Two diamond cards and chasing flush, they can't be stopped given the stack size they have.

This is the situation , I struggle with . 1) Should i make a big raise that gives them less than 32% pot odd , So technically they are wrong to call? 2) Or As this table, it is hard to stop people from Flush draw and should i control the Pot?

This particular hand i reraised to $40 and Villain put all in utg +1 called.

Turn was :2S:

River was :AD:

Villain and UTG+1 one hit the flush.. Villain had :KD: and another diamond card and Utg+1 had :QD: and other diamond card.

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,405 -
    edited December 2019
    Couple of points.

    1. There's no reason to overcall from CO with this hand preflop. Further, the only way you can really use position is by raising to knock the button out. It turns out they folded, but that's not the usual outcome in this kind of limpy game.

    2. On terms. The flop action cannot go check/check/raise... first money in the pot is a bet, so you don't reraise, you raise.

    As to the hand... Given you're $80 deep with UTG, making it $40 seems to me to put you a sort of no-man's land. Rather than worry about flush draws, it's likely better to size your bet based on a target range of made hands you're beating and from which you wish to extract value.

    The way this hand played illustrates that against these opponents there's probably no way of manipulating how they play their draws. This is frequently the case, thus don't worry about it.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,998 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    If the game plays the way you say, just shove.
    AceBala wrote: »
    I want to stop everyone from the Flush chase.

    Why would you want to do that? The point of poker is to make them put in more money bad, not to help them play better by folding correctly. You don't want to stop them from chasing, you just want them to pay too much for it.
  • AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    If the game plays the way you say, just shove.
    AceBala wrote: »
    I want to stop everyone from the Flush chase.

    Why would you want to do that? The point of poker is to make them put in more money bad, not to help them play better by folding correctly. You don't want to stop them from chasing, you just want them to pay too much for it.

    Interesting comment, If Iunderstand you right, you are saying extract money from the Flush chaser and we win if they miss the flush right? In this case, If i have put them all in, I am pretty sure these players are going to call me 95% time with a flush draw, So I make money around 70% time( This is the time the flush never makes it).. If Flush does make it, i am going to lose my money and i believe that is the variance in poker.

    @jeffnc Please let me know if i understood you correctly.
  • AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    edited December 2019
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Couple of points.


    As to the hand... Given you're $80 deep with UTG, making it $40 seems to me to put you a sort of no-man's land. Rather than worry about flush draws, it's likely better to size your bet based on a target range of made hands you're beating and from which you wish to extract value.

    Thanks for your Comment @TheGameKat , I appreciate it. Above statement gives me more questions. I am not arguing, just trying to get more Knowledge.
    1.Why $40 Puts me on no-man's land? The pot is $15 and i put $40, Which makes the caller put almost 3/4th of the money to continue( $40 on a $55 pot).My intention was to give him less than 32% of pot odd to call, Now i do the math i gave him 42% which is a good call but if i had made only $15 bet, Would that be a right bet to stop the chaser?
    2) I have the above question in a different way for your comment" size your bet based on a target range" How would you size your bet for a chasing range?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,998 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    Yes, all correct.

    And remember, it's not how often you win the hand, it's how much profit you make. For example, if you could bet $100 and win $500 once out of 3 times, you'd get rich, even though you're usually going to lose the bet.

    Here's a real world example of what I mean. Let's say you shove all-in preflop with AA and get called in 5 spots. If this happens, invariably you're going to hear the guy with AA say "I wanted 1 or 2 callers, no more!" Because he's afraid of losing the hand, rather than being excited to be in a profitable position. Let's assume all the callers have hands in the top 15%*, and everyone has $200 stacks.

    Everyone folds preflop:
    equity - 100%
    pot - $203
    EV - $203
    profit - $3

    Heads up:
    equity - 85%
    pot - $400
    EV - $340
    profit - $140

    5 opponents:
    equity - 48%
    pot - $1200
    EV - $576
    profit - $376

    Which situation would you rather be in?!


    * believe it or not, it doesn't matter much what kind of ranges your opponents have - the equities are still going to be approximately that.
  • AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    @jeffnc Man this is completely different from what i learnt so far. Appreciate you taking time! i never let anyone close with aces..i always try to eliminate the crowd.I see players who making big money with aces by letting players to call. i was wondering , he got lucky..looks like the pot equity matters a lot
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,998 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AceBala wrote: »
    i never let anyone close with aces..i always try to eliminate the crowd.

    To be fair, AA is not so easy to play if there is a lot of money left with cards to come and a lot of people in the pot. It was easier when we were all in preflop. Also the same if we're all in against a flush draw, as long as it was a big bet. The harder part happens if the flush card comes and then they bet - are they bluffing? At low stakes usually not, but still....

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,405 -
    AceBala wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Couple of points.


    As to the hand... Given you're $80 deep with UTG, making it $40 seems to me to put you a sort of no-man's land. Rather than worry about flush draws, it's likely better to size your bet based on a target range of made hands you're beating and from which you wish to extract value.

    Thanks for your Comment @TheGameKat , I appreciate it. Above statement gives me more questions. I am not arguing, just trying to get more Knowledge.
    1.Why $40 Puts me on no-man's land? The pot is $15 and i put $40, Which makes the caller put almost 3/4th of the money to continue( $40 on a $55 pot).My intention was to give him less than 32% of pot odd to call, Now i do the math i gave him 42% which is a good call but if i had made only $15 bet, Would that be a right bet to stop the chaser?
    2) I have the above question in a different way for your comment" size your bet based on a target range" How would you size your bet for a chasing range?

    Betting $40 means a call produces a pot of $95 with $40 behind. So if anyone does call it's basically the same as having gone all in. Similarly the size rules out anyone jamming over you as a semi-bluff as they know they have no fold equity.

    As to a target range. You don't target draws, that's the point.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 68 ✭✭
    Fold pre. Q8o is trash almost always. If you want to turn trash into gold, limping is the worst way to do this.

    Flop: You hit gin and they have 8 outs. If they show you a set of 3’s then so be it. Opponents SPR are 6 and 12. 2 pair plays nicely there.

    As played, I raise to 20 and shove a non diamond turn.

    Also, are you being results oriented in this post? If the river is the 4 of spades, do you still post the hand?
  • AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    BFSkinner wrote: »
    Thanks for your Response!

    Also, are you being results-oriented in this post? If the river is the 4 of spades, do you still post the hand?

    Not sure what did you mean by result-oriented. I would have done this post regardless of the Turn and River card. I wanted to know should i risk my money by posting a bigger bet to stop the draws or milk them the most by sizing enough to extract the money in case they miss the flop

  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 68 ✭✭
    You have 70% equity against both those hands. You got it in with that equity while you were ahead. If you won, would you have posted the hand? If I get it in vs those hands I am fist pumping with all the positive equity I gained. The results don’t matter, only the math does.

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