$80 Deepstack, Let's mix it up, shall we?

WassenaarWassenaar Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
edited March 7 in Tournament Poker Hands
$80 Deepstack (60k start), 7/27, 4 places pays. 10 000/10 000/5 000 with the BB ante.

So, we've been playing solid today. We are likely to be viewed as a solid TAG by our opponents. I've not been seen in any unorthodox plays which is exactly what I want when I find reasons to create one. Of course, when making plays like the one I'm going to present I want to make sure I have a very strong reasoning to do so. Please bear with me on this hand and don't hang me just for making "weak" moves... I'm much more interested if you'll find something that should be altered in my line of thinking.

UTG (Hero - 225 000) holds :AH::JH: , limps 10 000
UTG+1 (Boring TAG - 250 000), folds
HJ (TAG - 180 000), folds
CO (LAG - 200 000), folds
BTN (Boring TAG - 165 000), raise 27 000
SB (Solid TAG - 100 000), folds
BB (Loose-Passive - 350 000), calls 17 000
UTG, calls 17 000

Live tell: I'm not 100% sure, but I picked up a tell on the BTN. I'm pretty sure he didn't notice my limp, which obviously widens his range a ton. He glanced straight from his cards to the blinds before raising and seemed surprised when the flop wasn't dealt after the BB called.

Assumption: I never limp. I found this to be a good situation to deviate from that. We're holding a pretty strong hand with AJs, but we're not happy with being 3-bet from one of the TAGs behind. Which is one of the reasons I figured that I'm risking the minimum amount of chips while somewhat disguising my hand strength, and I get to see if the situation that occurs will be one I'm digging before I invest any more. I also got an eye on the blinds and I know that I will call an all-in from the HJ, CO and SB if they decide to chip it in. If we get to see a flop with multiple callers, that's also just fine with me. I might also trigger the LAG in the CO to chip it if he's faced with a limp-fest, meaning I will do better against his range than if I open and he shoves.

Flop (pot: 86 000): :8H::6D::3C:

BB, checks
UTG, bet 35 000
BTN, folds
BB, folds

Assumption: I rarely donk and haven't done any of that prior to this hand in this tournament. My reasoning is mostly found within stacksizes and flop texture. If I check this board, most likely BTN will fire a c-bet and I don't believe a check/raise is going to do me much else than risking to lose more while only being able to represent a set. The only merit I find in checking is that I can see what the BB decides to do before acting, but we wouldn't love life then either. So for the BTN I'm anticipating action when he has overpairs, sets or A8, K8 while folding his Ax, Kx and broadways. I believe BB will play fit or fold poker in the situation I put him in. If I get a call from either player I will simply give up on any turn that doesn't improve my equity while most likely chip it on an A, J or heart.

Yes I know that I can shove this hand preflop profitably from UTG, but does that always mean that it's the optimal play? By taking the line I did I think I can save myself from going bust the times UTG+1 wakes up with something or when we're in a set-up situation where one player is all-in and somebody else overjams.

Excited to hear what yall make out of this hand!

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,629 -
    edited March 7
    Wassenaar wrote: »
    $80 Deepstack (60k start), 7/27, 4 places pays. 10 000/10 000/5 000 with the BB ante.

    So, we've been playing solid today. We are likely to be viewed as a solid TAG by our opponents. I've not been seen in any unorthodox plays which is exactly what I want when I find reasons to create one. Of course, when making plays like the one I'm going to present I want to make sure I have a very strong reasoning to do so. Please bear with me on this hand and don't hang me just for making "weak" moves... I'm much more interested if you'll find something that should be altered in my line of thinking.

    Comments inline. Overall I think your thinking is scattered.
    Wassenaar wrote: »
    UTG (Hero - 225 000) holds :AH::JH: , limps 10 000
    UTG+1 (Boring TAG - 250 000), folds
    HJ (TAG - 180 000), folds
    CO (LAG - 200 000), folds
    BTN (Boring TAG - 165 000), raise 27 000
    SB (Solid TAG - 100 000), folds
    BB (Loose-Passive - 350 000), calls 17 000
    UTG, calls 17 000

    Live tell: I'm not 100% sure, but I picked up a tell on the BTN. I'm pretty sure he didn't notice my limp, which obviously widens his range a ton. He glanced straight from his cards to the blinds before raising and seemed surprised when the flop wasn't dealt after the BB called.

    I'll return to whether limping was sensible after your justification for it below, but having reached this point in the hand, shove! It would be the move anyway, but with a button who can basically be playing ATC here if your tell is correct, and a weak range even if it isn't, coupled with a loose BB, this is an easy limp-jam.
    Wassenaar wrote: »
    Assumption: I never limp. I found this to be a good situation to deviate from that. We're holding a pretty strong hand with AJs, but we're not happy with being 3-bet from one of the TAGs behind. Which is one of the reasons I figured that I'm risking the minimum amount of chips while somewhat disguising my hand strength, and I get to see if the situation that occurs will be one I'm digging before I invest any more. I also got an eye on the blinds and I know that I will call an all-in from the HJ, CO and SB if they decide to chip it in. If we get to see a flop with multiple callers, that's also just fine with me. I might also trigger the LAG in the CO to chip it if he's faced with a limp-fest, meaning I will do better against his range than if I open and he shoves.

    Are you really disguising your hand strength by limping? You might be insofar as you've just limped off a 22.5bb stack, which good players simply don't do. So assuming you've created a competent image prior to this, you may well have created confusion. As just mentioned, with confusion reigning, a limp-jam resolves that confusion into people assuming you were trapping with a monster. The limp-call makes your hand look exactly what it is.

    You say you limp to avoid being 3-bet by a TAG behind, but you also say you'll stack off to all but UTG+1/HJ. Eh? Calling off in a tournament is always inferior to being the aggressor, so this plan is IMO deeply flawed. And it also implies you're taking this weird passive act for the sole purpose of not being 3-bet by the two positions who are least likely to 3-bet you. Indeed if you just open-raise normally to 2.25x and either of the next two positions jam over you, you have a comfortable fold with no damage done.

    Finally you suggest you're fine going multiway to a flop. Why? This is a shallow-stacked tournament situation where you use your stack aggressively to gather chips. It's not the time to be playing "make a hand".
    Wassenaar wrote: »
    Flop (pot: 86 000): :8H::6D::3C:

    BB, checks
    UTG, bet 35 000
    BTN, folds
    BB, folds

    Assumption: I rarely donk and haven't done any of that prior to this hand in this tournament. My reasoning is mostly found within stacksizes and flop texture. If I check this board, most likely BTN will fire a c-bet and I don't believe a check/raise is going to do me much else than risking to lose more while only being able to represent a set. The only merit I find in checking is that I can see what the BB decides to do before acting, but we wouldn't love life then either. So for the BTN I'm anticipating action when he has overpairs, sets or A8, K8 while folding his Ax, Kx and broadways. I believe BB will play fit or fold poker in the situation I put him in. If I get a call from either player I will simply give up on any turn that doesn't improve my equity while most likely chip it on an A, J or heart.

    The donk lead just tells your opponent's you don't have a set.
    Wassenaar wrote: »
    Yes I know that I can shove this hand preflop profitably from UTG, but does that always mean that it's the optimal play? By taking the line I did I think I can save myself from going bust the times UTG+1 wakes up with something or when we're in a set-up situation where one player is all-in and somebody else overjams.

    Excited to hear what yall make out of this hand!

    I remain puzzled by it.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • WassenaarWassenaar Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I remain puzzled by it.

    Ouch. I think its time for a short defense speech on my behalf. Most obviously is of course the shove you highlight after BTN raise... That should have been an easy shove and probably the right thing to do.

    In my defense I'm not saying I limp to avoid being 3-bet, but simply to get away as cheap as possible if either UTG+1 or HJ are waking up with a hand. My limp will as you agreed cause confusion and in the time of the hand I wouldn't expect any of the two to be out of line whenever they open, so I will have an easy fold as well as if I were to open and got 3-bet by either. 1,25 BBs saved in those scenarios seemed like a good save.

    By saying I'm fine taking a flop for my limp, I'm not implying its ideal. But my hand will play well and easy and if I totally miss the flop in that given scenario I would be 1 BB down and not much damage done.

    Weird hand for sure... Totally find merit in shoving preflop after the BTN raise. With the calling mistake preflop being done, I'd probably stick to the donk as I'm expecting pretty straight forward action.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,629 -
    I'm on-board the donk provided your opponents fold a lot, but in the tournaments I play in it's more like 2007 cash games. They are bad at folding, so I revert to value.
    Moderation In Moderation

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